The AnimeFanlistings Network Message Board
The Anime Fanlistings Network => General Questions and Discussion => Topic started by: freedom of speech on October 27, 2007, 03:17:45 PM
-
Hello, our name is Anonymous and we have some issues we'd like to have addressed. But we'd like these issues addressed by everyone, not just any one member of the senior staff. Lately, we have been unhappy with how strictly, to the point of being unfairly, moderated this board has become. We have many complaints so we will post them one by one and wish that the staff as well as the members get a chance to address them.
The General Questions and Discussion forum says specifically, Only post in this forum if you're willing to DISCUSS things with other board members! If you want a direct and straight-forward answer from a Senior Staffer, post in the Questions for the Senior Staff forum! Yet, every other post in this forum is answered by a Senior Staffer and closed. What's wrong with us discussing the codes rule? If we're posting in there, clearly we don't want a straight-forward reply from the Senior Staff. There are many topics posted in there that we'd love to discuss, however we can't because they have been closed and us re-posting a thread makes us seem like the bad guys.
Our second complaint is the posting of non-TAFL related fanlistings. We understand the reasons behind not having an "Other Network Pimping" board, and why threads created solely for pimping other network's fanlistings aren't allowed. But in all honesty, how is posting one or two TFL fanlistings (most of which are game-related - a common interest between AFLers and TFLers) in a list of 20 up for adoption harmful to the community? It is a waste of time and resources when these posts are edited and subjects are removed - Especially when some categories are going months without updating and forms are left unanswered. It makes us feel like the Senior Staff has nothing better to do than track us down and make sure no one knows about our one TFL fanlisting that needs a home.
Thirdly, the Off-Topic Chit-Chat board. Isn't that supposed to be a place for us to talk about anything? Yet it seems like any and every thread made for the specific purpose of chatting about anything with our fellow board members is closed. When we lost the "What are you doing?" thread over a debate about one person's comments on a website, we were slightly peeved to say the least. Everyone loved that thread, and it had been the start of many friendships between fellow board members. Then the "Your Mood" thread was opened, and we received another chance to bond with our fellow peers. However, that thread was closed because a few people posted about adoptions/rejections (yet, at the time it was closed, it looked like that wasn't being discussed at all). A simple warning could have sufficed. The message boards are never more dead than after one of our important threads are closed. It makes us sad to see that, because we adore TAFL and yet it feels as if we’re forced to join the TFL community just to talk with other TAFLers!
Actually, TFL is our next point. We understand that we adopted TFL's rules when we became a separate network, but then changed some to suit us better. However, some of them are bordering on ridiculous:
1. The "6 upcoming" rule is way too low. Given all the categories, fanlistings, and the fact that almost every major category updates at the same time, it pretty much ensures that people will miss fanlistings they want simply because of that rule. Not only this, but half of the categories update late, so we have unprocessed finished forms counting against us for weeks!
2. As if that wasn't enough, now the 3 pending rule is in our way. There are many major categories who have large amounts of troubles removals every other month, so why should we be punished and not be given the chance to run the 4 fanlistings that were removed? This again being coupled with the occasionally-sparse updates makes it very unfair for us.
3. Our third argument with the rules is the codes rule. Why should people be troubled for completely optional gifts to their members? If people think that codes are ambiguous then they have a choice not to use them. Being troubled for putting a picture of a manga-ka and writing "fan" just because other people are ignorant is a terrible excuse.
4. Finally, the < 4 per relationship rule. There are plenty of relationships that have 4 or more completely legitimate characters that we should be allowed to apply for. Some examples include: Ichigo, Ishida, Chad, Orihime & Rukia (Bleach); Ash, May, Max & Brock (Pokemon); Naruto, Shikamaru, Kiba, Chouji & Neji (from the Sasuke retrieval arc of Naruto), as well as Sakon, Ukon, Tayuya, Jiroubo & Kidoumaru from the same arc; Revy, Rock, Dutch & Benny (Black Lagoon); Gene, Jim, Melfina & Aisha Clan Clan (Outlaw Star); the Host Club (Haruhi, Tamaki, Kyouya, Mori, Honey, Hikaru & Kaoru); Ichigo, Isshin, Karin & Yuzu (Bleach); Tenchi, Ryoko, Ayeka & Sasami (Tenchi Muyo!), and finally Roy, Hawkeye, Havoc, Falman, Fuery & Breda (Fullmetal Alchemist). Those are just a few examples of legitimate 4+ character relationships that should be approvable.
This next argument has been derived from the above - how, when we want to discuss rules, we are basically just told "No" without a good reason. Why shouldn't we, the people of TAFL, not have a say in how this network is run? We're sure that many people would agree with us on each of those points made above, but yet we don't get any say on it. Even our opinions about things that should/shouldn't be approvable are dismissed, and often solely on the category staffer's opinions on series they aren't even familiar with. Threads about the codes rule and 4 person + relationship rule are closed without discussion, and although the upcoming/pending rules have been said to be "discussed", we were never updated on the progress. We have a right to know that our opinions are taken seriously.
The reason why this is an anonymous post is our last argument - bias. Very few of the Staff are also active members of the boards, and the ones who are often punish/scold/warn us about every rule. This type of environment almost puts Staff up in a type of "God" role and makes us feel like if we say one thing that a Staffer could yell at us for, suddenly all of our applications will start getting rejected. This type of fear isn't normal and it is not that way on TFL. Is it too much to ask to have Staffers who will talk to everyone and not make us feel like we're the scum of the earth because we got a little angry about a rejection or ungrateful about something else? The elite feeling of the boards just makes them scary, and if we wanted to be scared, we wouldn't go here in the first place.
We know this seems like a long and unreasonable rant, but if we posted everything one by one, we'd have to keep going back to the public place where we're posting because we're afraid of getting our IPs traced and getting banned/yelled at/rejected for fanlistings and that would be troublesome to say the least. Although the "we" only refers to the people helping write this, we're sure that every other member has to agree with at least one of our points. This is why we'd like to allow other members the chance to post their opinions. The information for this account is:
username: speak_your_mind
password: anonymous
Please, please don't close this thread. Feel free to address it, but trying to ignore these concerns will only make us and the other members more upset and mostly likely more groups like us will surface. We love TAFL and we love being TAFL Message Board members, but we want to be able to speak our minds. Thank you for reading, staff and members alike, and we look forward to reading ALL of your opinions.
-
I won't address every topic, but I'll throw in my two cents about some of the things.
I'm writing as another member of the board, not as a staff member. I'm not speaking for the staff or anything, I'm speaking as myself:
Regarding the Off Topic Chit-Chat, my personal opinion on threads such as What Are You Doing? And What is Your Mood? is that they are full of one-liners that don't really stimulate any sort of discussion/conversation anyway. I personally find it almost spammy. I'm totally up for topics such as the BL/Yaoi Love thread because they spark actual conversation, but I see those other threads as nothing more than lists.
If you feel a staff member has treated you unfairly, I really do encourage you to e-mail the staffer about it and discuss it. If you feel there was bias involved in an application, you can always ask why you were rejected rather than assume it was bias. In all honesty, I also feel I have been treated unfairly by some board members. I've also been made to feel miserable/harassed by other fanlisting owners, especially through e-mails where other people can't read what you write. It's not just one way.
My Opinion on Policies:
I realize TFL has a 20 upcoming rule while we have 6, but considering TFL has nearly 40, 000 fanlistings and TAFL has 6,500, in my opinion, the numbers are somewhat proportional. I actually think TFL's 20 upcoming rule is ridiculous and the number should be lower. When applying for future fanlistings, you could always tell the staffer you have sent in a Finished Form for some of the upcomings. I've had people tell me that and I had no problem with it. I suppose it wouldn't be that big of a deal if the number was increased, but I am not the creator of this rule so I don't know.
The codes rule is reasonable, in my personal opinion. Why would you provide an ambiguous code as a gift anyway? I think it is a trouble worthy offence because there are fanlistings that were created because the owner actually really wants to own a different fanlisting, and thus, tries to get people to join this one by "disguising" their code buttons. Saying the other person is ignorant is not fair, in my opinion, when the code is truly difficult to interpret. For example, in the series category, before the codes rule, nearly half the fanlistings' codes were pictures of characters with the word 'fan' on it. I don't think I would have been ignorant if I assumed it was a fanlisting for a character, if I saw someone using that button to link to the site.
The relationship rule was put in to prevent people from applying for fanlistings with ridiculous amounts of relationships, say, someone who does not own a certain series fanlisting or something, and instead applies for a relationship fanlisting with nearly all the characters in it. This is like 'double-dipping'. We do realize that there are relationships with four characters that are legitimate, but it is difficult for us to allow the 'legitimate' ones and reject the ones that are not because we do not know every series, and because what is not legitimate in our eyes, may be legitimate in yours.
(I don't have the time to address every point right now, as I have to leave now for an appointment, but here are my opinions on some of the problems you have. Again, this is all from the opinion of me, myself, and I am not speaking for the staff or as a staff member (although you probably find my opinions overlap their's anyway).
-
I've deleted the 'anonymous' account used since we already have an anonymous board account at TAFL specifically for people to use if they do not want their identities known. The info for that account is below (it can also be found in the guidelines for the Questions for Senior Staff forum post). Use that account or your own if you have something to say.
Username: Anonymous
Password: anonymous
-
In regards to the Off-Topic Chit Chat threads: I agree that there needs to be a place for open discussion to happen, but I do not feel like the Your Mood or What Are You Doing threads are the way to go. In fact, in regards to the Your Mood thread, I personally feel that recent posts in the thread were made for the sole purpose of allowing several board members to badger one other member who had done something they disliked. I do not know the details of the situation, but there is absolutely no reason for anyone at TAFL to feel like they are being harassed or bullied in any thread, whether on or off topic. This very reason is the reason many of these discussion threads are closed so quickly. When the thread is started with a very aggressive, accusing tone, it becomes easy to spiral out of control into a situation where people's feelings are hurt!
I love threads like Mitzrael's yaoi/BL thread which encourage healthy discussion and the opportunity to learn more about one another all the while keeping a neutral tone. I agree with Chisa - if you want a thread to discuss your school finals, or debate what your favorite movie is, why not start one? You don't need a Your Mood, or What Are You Doing thread to have alively discussion. ^_^
In regards to the codes rule: I absolutely do not understand why people are still upset about this. It takes less than a minute to either remove codes that do not comply, or alter them so that they do. There is no fanlisting at this network now that should have codes that do not comply - when the rule became strictly enforced, all offending fanlistings were given a month's time to comply, before a troubles notice was ever sent. All new fanlistings know about the rule before they are even built - or should. If you are not reading the Network rules page before you apply/build your fanlisting, then I think you will have bigger problems than some ambiguous codes. I myself received a notice about some offending codes on one of my series fanlistings. I removed the codes and the problem was no more.
A quick note in regards to the Relationships rule: Some of the "relationshps" you listed are, or could be, classified as character groups. The Ouran Koukou Host Club is already listed under Characters, so having a relationship fanlisting for that group wouldn't be allowed in any situation. The Black Lagoon relationship you mentioned, Rock, Revy, Benny and Dutch, may qualify as a group, as well - the Lagoon Company. That would have to be discussed with the Characters staffers.
And in regards to the "elite" feel of the boards: I have never noticed a difference between the TFL and TAFL boards in regards to the Staff activity on the boards themselves. Not when I was a member, not after I became a staffer. There is a certain amount of "parenting", for lack of a better word, that is done on all message boards, because otherwise they would not be a pleasant place to visit. This "parenting" can be done by members of the community, as well as moderators, and usually is. (Come you guys - I have definitely seen some of the board members here step up to defend others, or let someone know when they are out of line.) The parenting happens on an equal level both here, and TFL - I feel very strongly that th reason it is noticed more at the TAFL board is because it is a much smaller community. With so many fewer posts each day, more people notice when a staffer has to step into a situation and give a reminder. And that is all it is - reminders. No one is trying to play god, no one is going to hold a grudge against another person for calmly and maturely speaking their mind.
You say this:
Is it too much to ask to have Staffers who will talk to everyone and not make us feel like we're the scum of the earth because we got a little angry about a rejection or ungrateful about something else?
Have you ever thought about being the one to open communications? Of course if you are angry, or ungrateful the staffer(s) are not going to want to go out of their way to hold a conversation. We are people, with feelings too, and we know who you are talking about when you make those angry or ungrateful comments. As unbelievable as it may seem, we do believe all of our decisions are the best ones possible, and we do stand by them. Being flamed, even if not by name, hurts!
Speaking on a completely personal level, I am 100% more open to possibilities if they are laid before me with kindness. If you approach me pleasantly, with reasons, instead of approaching angrily, with accusations, I will always, always listen and discuss the situation. It is impossible to discuss something with a person who is demanding their way. I know, I have to deal with it every day in real life.
So, that is what I feel I have to contribute to this discussion. My comments are made as both a staffer and as an individual board member. I believe they stand either way. And for what it is worth, I love this community and the members here. I think everyone is a fantastic individual, and I am saddened to see that not everyone feels the same way.
-
I do think that some things need to be discussed between the board members and the moderators of this board... A perfect example is the
upcoming and pending rules -- We never heard back about that.
I definitely agree that the 6 upcoming and 3 pending rule is very low -- Mostly because of the amount of time updates are made. If updates were more frequent like they are on TFL, then maybe it would be "proportional", but when you're waiting 2-6 weeks for your finished form to get processed, that's not exactly fair.
I believe that there should be a way to approve legitimate 4+ character relationships. And if it's about what is legitimate in a staffers eyes because one is unfamiliar with the series, then there should be a 'more information about the subject' section on the application. That way the applicant can prove that the relationship is legitimate...
I am glad that a lot of these things were pointed out... I look forward to hearing how this post will progress!
-
The majority of the points in the original post have been commented on numerous times in the past, so I won't go into detail for most of them. There are several points I feel need to be made though.
First, despite what some of you may think, TAFL (and TFL for that matter) is not a democracy. You are always welcome to voice your comments, questions, and concerns which we do take under consideration, but at the end of the day, if you want to have your fanlistings listed at TAFL or want to be a part of the TAFL board community you need to follow our rules and policies which are decided on and enforced by the TAFL Staff. You do not have to agree with them all, you do not have to like them all, but you do need to follow them to keep your fanlistings listed at the network.
The General Questions and Discussions forum is a place for discussion and comments, but new threads about topics that have been thoroughly discussed previously and resolved/answered can and will be closed.
We have always had a board policy that you could only discuss and promote TAFL approved fanlistings on the forums. It had to be more strictly enforced because people were taking advantage. Game fanlistings are not related to anime and manga fanlistings anymore than say a fanlisting about food would be. People who own anime and manga fanlistings having an interest in it does not make it related.
The What are you Doing and Your Mood threads were filled with spam and hostility. They did not foster discussion in the least bit. We have never discouraged people from posting threads that will lead to actual discussions (in fact we often go out of our way to start them ourselves).
The code rule is not new. It has been an unwritten rule since the network's inception. We have been actively enforcing the rule since March. No amount of complaining or 'discussion' will result in it being removed or changed, so people will have to learn to live with the rule or if they find themselves unable to do so, remove their fanlistings from the network.
Danielle has already replied to the 3 people relationship rule just last month here (http://\"http://board.animefanlistings.org/index.php?showtopic=14079\"). We have no plans to change that rule. Likewise, we have commented numerous times on the application limit. We feel six is a reasonable limit given the time it takes to make fanlistings (and the fact that serial applicants already abuse that limit). We have no plans to change it currently.
I'm answering your final point personally and am not speaking for all of the Senior Staff (though I am sure they would agree with me). Trust me when I tell you that I never like having to correct people on the boards. Apparently, based on the original post some of you think I get some kind of great joy or power thrill out of it, but that is very far from the truth. Part of my job here at TAFL (as I'm sure most everyone is aware of) is to maintain and moderate the board. That means that at times, I do have to be the 'bad guy' for want of a better term to make sure policies, common courtesy, and a pleasant environment are maintained. I have been involved with various message boards in the years I've been on the internet and they all have rules and policies that are enforced to maintain a peaceful and enjoyable posting environment for the people that use it. If you find our board policies too strict or restrictive you are welcome to go elsewhere to discuss things with people. I'm fairly confident that the vast majority of people that visit our boards enjoy themselves and have no problems following our simple and basic rules and policies.
Speaking purely personally now and not as a staffer I find it rather offensive and insulting that you imply our staffers will penalize you for any opinions or comments you may make about TAFL. All of our staffers take their jobs very seriously and go out of their way to be as impartial and fair as possible. It's sad to me that a double standard seems to exist where some fanlisting owners think they can say whatever they want to or about staff members and we are supposed to just take it, ignore it, or act like it doesn't hurt our feeling or bother us, but whenever a staffer makes any kind of comment, corrects anyone, or points out something that people should know (such as a rule or policy) it's instantly a sign that we're overbearing, mean, think we're better than everyone else, or showing favoritism. I personally find that really tedious and tiresome. I also find it rather silly you all felt a need to make a collective anonymous post. I'm sure most people can wager a pretty good guess as to who was involved in the thread's creation, so I don't really see the point.
-
[quote name='Rosemary' post='217482' date='Oct 27 2007, 04:02 PM']It's sad to me that a double standard seems to exist where some fanlisting owners think they can say whatever they want to or about staff members and we are supposed to just take it, ignore it, or act like it doesn't hurt our feeling or bother us, but whenever a staffer makes any kind of comment, corrects anyone, or points out something that people should know (such as a rule or policy) it's instantly a sign that we're overbearing, mean, think we're better than everyone else, or showing favoritism.[/quote]
I totally agree with Rose here; I mean, we're not dumb, we know some of the things people have said about us behind our backs, and we wonder if anyone actually really expects us to not feel hurt by it. However, if it was the other way around, we're seen as tyrants.
-
Hmm, I'm sort of on both sides of the fence with this one. There are aspects of the post that I agree with- for instance, the 3 pending per category rule is sort of harsh considering the huge troubles removals that happen (especially with both Characters categories as well as Relationships). And I agree with some parts of their objections to code rule, especially when it comes to manga-ka- but, as Chisa pointed out, there are many Series fanlistings that should be on troubles for their codes. I also think that we do need some sort of off-topic chat thread because, as they pointed out, the forum has been rather dead lately.
On the other side, I agree with Rosemary about respect. It does go both ways and staff only seem to get respect when they've done something that makes people happy. I always try to put myself in the staff's shoes when I get rejected for something, and even though it may hurt, I know that at the end of the day, the staff have put lots of time and effort into their decisions. And, as Rosemary stated, it's not a democracy here, so we have to respect their decisions.
Anyways, I do hope more people will post here either way, especially some members. I've read every post top-to-bottom so far, as I'm sure many others have, so now is a great time to voice your opinions. :3
-
I will try to give a coherent opinion...
well, first of all, that 4+ relationships... yes, in some cases it should be approvable... but I imagine it would be very, very difficult to investigate about EVERY application - staffers don't know about all series out there, and if they didn't and approved without doing that would lead to "cushion" fanlistings (was that the word...? when you apply for something just for the sake of owning sth related to your fave series or pairing). I don't have any good ideas right now, but I'm sure it's a very complicated issue. ^_^
Then the codes... I've also been troubled because of that, and yet I totally agree on the rule. I just hate when I'm going around joined FLs lists and I can't recognize which FLs the codes are linking. o_ó
And finally... I feel a bit guilty, as I was the one who restarted the Your Mood thread some months ago :( I didn't think about those things you point out... you're right, I'm sorry. Even though I was glad to see how everyone was doing, I admit it was a spammy one T_T and I had no idea why the "What are you doing?" was closed (I wasn't around here at that time, can't remember why), I'm happy to see the reasons :o
So, I think the solution would be to create more specific threads at Off-Topic Chit-Chat section (but don't spam this place over, please :() What about that? :)
-
As another board member and fellow listings owner I'll also add my 2-cents and points of view since it's the main idea behind this thread.
About the "6 upcoming" rule, this surely is up to every single one of us way to see it.
I'm speaking for myself when I say, this limit is just about enough to run my own listings in a decent way.
I'm also conscious that we do not have the same needs nor free-time to dedicate those moments to this lovely hobby called "fanlistings" however, what if tomorrow we were to be granted a "20 pendings" limit? if you're getting a hold on yourself and restraining to focus on your most precious subjects wouldn't it be a real madness to suddenly apply for that huge number?
Then again, there's all kind of fandoms, and while some are tiny or just recent/new some others are really huge and do not decrease as time pass by, so 6 pendings might be restraining for those but, this shouldn't mean we've got to apply for everything nor get all we want out of a selfish desire.
Plus, not only would it multiplicate exponentially the amount of applications/approvals thus the amount of work for each staffer (maybe some more than others) but it will also affect updates of all sorts.
This fact brings me down to the update frequency touched on the thread. While, it could be true from an "urgent" point of view to get upcoming/pending applications cleared off everybody's log, each staffer, as us regular members, do have their own life to organize so yeah, one could think "if they can't get their job done, just quit" but taking care of a category must be quite time-consuming and some updates can't be done just because we all want to get approved, there's a time-limit (I think) before an update can be realized.
Anyway, it's not up to me to speak on staffers schedules nor free-time so that's all i'll say about that.
Now, back on the code rule and as it has already pointed several times, the rule has been up for several months now, and whilst I understand having 1, 500+ codes cumulated in a collective (just to make a point based on an non-real case) must be tiring to check and remove/edit I do think it shouldn't be that much a pain to do so. So why insist in not "evolving" like most part of the network and get up-to-date witht he rules instead of just stepping back, again and again? isnt' it a big loss of time bringing up the same topic while we/you could be editing or made the required changes to make listings comply with the not so mew rules? I'd be myself gladly up to help someone with "problems" editing codes but seriously talking around something that had been discussed and solved repeatdly is far from being a sign of progress. It's like we're talking about cleaning our own room instead of actually doing it? It's not funny i know but that's only how I see it, then again i might be mistaken so do not take it as something wrong nor anything since i'm just voicing my concern just as you did.
Being troubled for putting a picture of a manga-ka and writing "fan" just because other people are ignorant is a terrible excuse.
There, I must say that even if I'm not a staffer and obviously the last word is not on my lips, the idea behind this statement is quite an offense. AFL just like TFL or any other network alike, is not made of god-like people who knows everything about everything. For example I might know who Naduki Koujima is but I doubt everybody here knows, then if I see a code for Eiichiro Oda and i have no clue about who's that... well a mere "fan" code even with his face will not help me know who he is and I might just as well step beside a genius and not been aware of it. Anyway the point is, it doesn't hurt to put a nice "Eiichiro" or "Oda" on the code instead of a simple "fan" which clearly is unmistakable for some of us but not for just everybody across the world. Now. I do think and this come as a suggestion that maybe a thread like : "is that code right?" or something in the line could be open, just to make sure your codes are complying the rule code. Then, if a TC-er report a listing and the staffer judges it "guilty" there's a .... how could I word that? backup? yes, for codes verification. It's just an idea, obviously if done it wouldn't mean staffer should be "harrassed" to check on everybody's codes but crucial doubts could be solved that way.
I think I'm done here. I hope my personal insight won't be taken the wrong way, as the original posters i'm only expressing my own points of view. I also hope some suggestions could be taken out of this and applied in the future, who knows?
ps: forgive typos, grammatical mistakes and whatelse my nap do affect my brain after all *rotf*
-
I know there have been quite a few responses to this already, but I feel the urge to comment to this as well. I agree that everyone should voice their opinions on the subject.
Honestly, I have to say that I agree with Chisa and Rosemary on this one, as well as the rules already set by the network. First of all, as has already been said, TFL has a lot more categories and subjects than TAFL, so it is only natural that they have a larger number than here. I also think that having the ability to apply for 20 is insane, who can actually have that many on upcoming? That is more fanlistings than I actually own. I know fanlistings are fun and I enjoy them a lot, but why would you have to apply for that many at a time if you were only applying for subjects you really like? I just do not think that anyone can have that many on upcoming and take care of them well enough in the four week period given to complete them. I know I can barely handle 2-3 on upcoming, and I try to only have one application at a time. I know that sometimes it is hard because a bunch of subjects really dear to you seem to get removed all at once and some categories may be slow on the updates because the staffers have lives other than TAFL, but still. Having the limit increased will only inspire more collectors rather than fans. Plus, if you were allowed to have more, one or two people could easily overtake a new series before others even hear about it or whatever else. It seems to be that increasing the limit would only make things more unfair.
Secondly, the whole code thing is just getting ridiculous. I know that some subjects have really long names, but is it REALLY that big of a deal not to be able to have "fan" on a code for a series or song? I know that when one of my fanlistings was approved at TFL, but not over here, and the person who owned the TAFL one used game images, it annoyed me. I knew people would mistake it for the game fanlisting when it really wasn't. It would be the same thing if someone thought the subject was something you owned when it really wasn't. Like it has been said, it really does not take that long to get rid of codes that do not qualify under the rules. It has been in place for awhile now, and I just do not see the point in complaining about something that really should not matter if you are deticated enough to the subject.
As for the relationships, I know there are a few relationships that seem perfect for more than three people...such as the InuYasha gumi or even the Pokemon one...but expanding the relationship more than three people seems to defeat the point. In my opinion, the more people you add, the less you are focusing on one relationship and more you are focusing on a group of entangled relationships. I think the individual relationship fanlistings for the two or even three people inside the large group of people cover what one fanlisting for a group of four+ would anyway. But that is just my opinion.
The Off Topic Chitchat thing... I know it seems unfair it closed over an arguement, but feelings were hurt and people were being attacked. As said by others, just start a new thread if you have something in particular to talk about that would involve others in discussion instead of a place where people can say random things.
Lastly, the atmosphere amongst the staffers isn't any different here than at TFL. I think it is unfair to criticize the staffers here just because they are doing their job by upholding the rules established, especially when TFL does the same thing. They aren't doing anything because they don't "like" a person, they are doing it because it is what they do as part of the job of being a staffer. I am not a staffer myself, but I am sure it must be a tough job, especially with the application process.
Overall, I can understand that some people may be upset, but those are the rules set down. People agree with them and people who are not staffers can see why they are logical and allow them to be in place. Otherwise, people wouldn't apply for fanlistings, right? It seems fanlistings have turned into really serious things in the past few years, when they are supposed to be something for fun. Arguing over small details like this ruins the spirit of owning fanlistings.
Also, I don't mean to offend anyone by anything I have said, I am simply stating my opinion like everyone else here.
-
I'm sorry, but THIS is a little ridiculous. I'm going to be one of those "mean" staffers here and tell you that I'm disappointed that you couldn't make a stand for yourself and use your real name, because your fear is unfounded and I probably would have respected you all the more. But it's you're right to remain anonymous, and I acknowledge that completely.
Like Rose said, TAFL isn't a democracy. Posts about rules are closed down because they've been discussed TO DEATH. You need to have some kind of standard and authority when it comes to fanlisting networks, trust me. There's no way to make everyone completely happy. I'm not really sure what you're getting at here, either. Because are you thinking that we need to start opening up discussion polls for every little rule change? I can tell you from personal experience that we do discuss the rules, and we always try to find compromise that's fair. It needs to be this way, otherwise the entire network would be chaotic. I'm very sorry if this comes across as belittling, but most people have no idea what goes into running a network like this and how much time and effort it takes to keep it going.
One thing that really irks me about this post is that it kinda of rings of self-entitlement to me. From my personal point of view, the limit on the number of fanlistings you can have pending/upcoming is perfectly reasonable because it cuts back on the amount of collectors and it gives others more opportunities to apply for and run the different fanlistings. And I'm sure part of the rule has to do with quality, as well. How good of a job can you do on 10, 20, 30 upcoming fanlistings each month?
The reason why this is an anonymous post is our last argument - bias. Very few of the Staff are also active members of the boards, and the ones who are often punish/scold/warn us about every rule. This type of environment almost puts Staff up in a type of "God" role and makes us feel like if we say one thing that a Staffer could yell at us for, suddenly all of our applications will start getting rejected. This type of fear isn't normal and it is not that way on TFL. Is it too much to ask to have Staffers who will talk to everyone and not make us feel like we're the scum of the earth because we got a little angry about a rejection or ungrateful about something else? The elite feeling of the boards just makes them scary, and if we wanted to be scared, we wouldn't go here in the first place.
We know this seems like a long and unreasonable rant, but if we posted everything one by one, we'd have to keep going back to the public place where we're posting because we're afraid of getting our IPs traced and getting banned/yelled at/rejected for fanlistings and that would be troublesome to say the least. Although the "we" only refers to the people helping write this, we're sure that every other member has to agree with at least one of our points. This is why we'd like to allow other members the chance to post their opinions. The information for this account is:
username: speak_your_mind
password: anonymous
1) Staffers step in when they feel like other members of the community are being harassed about getting an approval over someone else. It always hurts to have to reject someone, and that never changes, but we don't tend to take those types of posts as being personal attacks. But when you make snide little comments about others getting the approval and you being "the bigger fan," YOU are undermining the community we have. You can attack us all you want, but you have to remember that first and foremost this is a board to talk about ANIME FANLISTINGS. There are countless other communities that you can join to talk about things that are off-topic.
2) This is hugely offensive to me, not only as a staffer, but also as a human being. I would never "punish" someone like that for speaking their minds, and I can tell you that NO ONE on staff would. If a fanlisting is given to a different owner, it's not because of my personal "vendettas," but because the owner has 1) less fanlistings related to that subject 2) they can code HTML 3) they've demonstrated that they run fanlistings well and have stayed off Troubles and 4) because they have a better application. You completely contradict yourself on this point because you say that we don't update enough and that most of us aren't regulars on the board, and yet we have all the time in the world to trace your IPs and compile a list of people titled "PEOPLE WE SHALL NEVER DARE TO APPROVE AGAIN"? Has this EVER happened to anyone? Do you have any proof that any staffer has ever done this?
There is a double standard when it comes to Staffers. We don't ever win. I could argue with you until I'm blue in the face and it wouldn't make a difference, would it? I hope if nothing else this thread will at least get the point across that Staffers are human beings and that we have feelings, too. We don't run around with sporks trying to make sure everyone is a miserable as they can be. A pretty good portion of the staff is in college or graduate school, and so we try to spend as much time as we can on the boards, but the board and fanlistings can never be our first obligation or concern in our lives. And I certainly hope they're not the primary concern in yours, either.
-
...I just exited out of the tab I typed my super long response in, because I'm just awesome like that ; ;
Anywho! This thread brings up a lot of good points. And now I get to type/retype everything multiple times so I make sure to not offend anyone.
Limit on Pending/Upcoming fanlistings
This limit isn't perfect. There are some people who could be approved for 10+ fanlistings, get them all finished on time, and take perfect care of every fanlisting they ever make. However, there are also people who are approved for 6 and then fail to finish any on time and let them all be removed 2-3 months after being approved, and rarely take care of their current fanlistings. In the first case, the limit would be too low. In the second (and yes, I've seen that happen, more than once), the limit is far too high. Six is a compromise, a middle ground. I'm sorry for those of you who fit into the first category, but for the majority of this network, the rule works very well. While I see and understand your point, it's not practical to change the rule for the few who would benefit.
As an applications staffer, I think that not enough people let me know when they've completed fanlistings. I get maybe 2-3 applications a year that say "I've finished these fanlistings" and provided URLS to the completed fanlistings, in case the finished forms aren't processed before I get to the application. If you've completed the fanlistings and let us know, we won't count them towards your limit of 6.
Relationships limit
To be honest, I don't really see why this is a problem. It's been brought up before--why didn't anyone else throw in their comments then? It just feels a smidge late to be bringing this up, in my opinion. Like Shalott said, many of the legit relationships with more than 3 characters can be approved into the Characters category. Those that don't, you may create a fanlisting for that's not approved by TAFL. When I have to tell someone we cannot approve their request to create a fanlisting for 3+ characters, I try to always suggest that--and most of them are quite happy to hear they can create the fanlisting outside of TAFL.
Staff Elitism
Do you guys really have a problem with us? ^_^ If a group of people are making someone else feel like crap, do you really think we have no right to politely tell that group to stop? If people are talking about the same thing in multiple topics, is it wrong to close one and let them chat about it in the other? We don't care to do it, to be honest. Especially in the first case! I, for one, would much rather have no one make anyone else feel like crap and have the staff not have to comment on it.
...and I think that's what I had to say, for the most part :o
-
Back again (just can't stay away?) I just want to elaborate on some more things ..
First off, it is most certainly understandable for one to become upset with a rejection, but what I personally find irritating is when people let off their steam in such a way that it may potentially hurt the person who DID get approved. Remember, we can only approve one person, and no, staffers do not gather together and conspire against people and decide 'we won't approve so-and-so any more fanlistings'. As an applications staffer myself, I must say that I really feel terrible rejecting people for fanlistings. It's definitely not fun, and I do not receive any thrills from doing it. Remember, the person who did get approved wanted the fanlisting just as much as you did.
On updating: If my memory serves me correctly, staff members are required to update their category at least once a month. Some staffers run more than one category as well, and trust me, they take up a lot of time. The last troubles update I did took me about three hours to complete, not counting the time I spent TC-ing a portion of the category myself. Applications could take even days because we truly do analyze every applicant and try to select the best one. Not only that, but considerable time is put in to research the subject to make sure that the subject exists, that the series isn't totally brand new, to find the proper Japanese names of the subject, etc. because not everyone provides links to sites with the information. Also, some categories are very small and do not need to be updated frequently and I'm sure the larger categories are already updated pretty frequently. Because of all these points, I feel asking us to "hurry up" is almost kind of rude. Like Lexa said, a great portion of the staff is made up of college/graduate students/people with jobs and TAFL cannot be our first priority.
Relationships: I know Mistress Puff suggested that maybe there be a box in the application form for people to 'prove' the relationship of more than four people is legitimate but the problem with this is that people will skew their arguments to make it sound more legitimate than it really is, because they want it. And it is also unfair to the masses: this would be the kind of thing that grants the staff "god" status, because how fair would it be if we approved Person A for one relationship with 4 characters, but reject someone else for another relationship with 4 characters because we believed we don't find it legitimate?
Last thing I want to say is codes. The process is like this: the Trouble Checker checks through the fanlisting and submits the list to the Troubles Staffer, who reviews the list and then decides which troubles are legitimate and which are not. Therefore, for a fanlisting to be troubled for codes, it has to pass (or would it be fail?) two rounds of judgement: both the checker and the staffer both agree it breaks the codes rule. This means it is not just ONE person who agrees the fanlisting should be on troubles, it's TWO. And besides, it's really not that big of a deal, is it? It's a very simple problem to resolve, the easiest way I can think of is to simply remove the code, which is about as easy as changing the update date on your fanlisting. Even various staff members have had their own fanlistings troubled for the code rule.
Lastly, from what I can tell by the posts made by other members of the board, nobody else seems too upset over staffer-board member relationships, which leads me to believe that the group who made the post is not, in fact, representing "everyone".
-
I don't have much to say, because I think anything I would've said has been much more eloquently presented by others, but there are a few things I would like to express, and since this entire thread is about "discussion", well. I'll just jump right in.
As others have said, the "Off-Topic" threads were closed because they went past the point of being just "off-topic". They were random, hurtful, and sometimes completely veered from the original intent of said thread. Why should be encourage people to be hostile towards one another? Especially when said hostility amounts into posts like these. And there were warnings (i.e. the other threads that were closed); Rosemary always states why a thread is closed. Is it that hard to go back and see why, make a mental note about the reasoning, and not do it again? It's hard to argue your point, when threads about why a separate thread was closed are made, just moments after the closing of the original thread. I mean, come on guys. Seriously?
As for the 6 upcoming and 3 pending rule - I have to whole-heartedly agree with Riley and Lexa. Addressing the 3 pending specifically, this is for your benefit as much as it is for ours. 3 pending discourages collectors and keeps things sane. It spreads the love, so to speak, in newer series and ensures that people who really care about the subject are getting a fair chance to apply. Also, after a major removal, the Applications staffer waits at least 2 weeks before processing applications; personally, I wait a month - that's ample time to finish your other upcomings and, as Kylara said, you can always inform us that you've sent said forms in, so it doesn't count against you. Another thing: you claim that we update sparsely, and yet you want us to raise the number of fanlistings you can apply for and the number you can have on upcoming? So, if I'm to understand this correctly - we don't update enough, but you should be allowed to send in even more forms, so we have more to process, which slows updates down and basically lets you keep complaining. How is that logical?
RE: the codes rule? This has been talked to death. As Rosemary said, it isn't going to change, it isn't new, and it honestly isn't asking that much. I think it's ridiculous that this is still an issue and this:
Being troubled for putting a picture of a manga-ka and writing "fan" just because other people are ignorant is a terrible excuse.
is completely uncalled for and rude. Calling someone ignorant because they don't know what a manga-ka looks like makes your whole argument about "Staffer elitism" kind of hypocritical and moot. How is it an "excuse" if someone legitimately doesn't recognize the author? And what is so wrong with asking for specificity? There is absolutely no reason why this should be such an issue.
I also have to agree with Lexa with how disappointed I am. We're volunteers and we have our own lives, yes, but we also do our best to work for you guys and the Network. Speaking frankly, I have never seen a group of people more dedicated to a community than the rest of the Staff. ALL of them spend hours everyday just to make sure that things run as smoothly for you as possible and do their best to work with you. It offends me to see these accusations tossed around, as if out of spite. We all have feelings; feelings that can be hurt, but not one of us would ever be "unprofessional" about any aspect of our jobs. It's sad to see that this group of individuals (who I agree, do not represent the whole) can't accept that.
-
My opinion probably agrees with a lot of people who've already posted, but since the topic starters wanted member replies, here's mine :3
About not posting TFL related fanlistings here, I'm totally okay with that, maybe because I don't own any, but also because this board is about anime and manga related fanlistings. If I want to see who owns a certain game/drama character/relationship, I can go to TFL to check, and if I'm interested in what fanlistings a person has, I can check their fanlistings collective, as almost everyone has one these days. Also, people are free to link to their TFL adoption posts (as far as I've seen), so it's not like you can't point out you're adopting out TFL listings.
To be honest, I think to have 6 fanlistings on upcoming is a lot and I'm sure I could never handle that myself. I've always wondered how people are able to take care of 20~30, or even more, fanlistings actually. (And by this, I don't mean to say that people who have this many are bad owners, not at all!) I think the 3 pending rule is actually quite fair. Like some other people have pointed out already, it keeps collecters from getting all the fanlistings for one series. Personally, I only apply for subjects I really like and therefore don't apply for many things I like and just hope the ones approved will take good care of them. If you like 4 or more subjects removed in an update, then prioritize what you like best and only apply for those.
I'm a bit half/half on the codes rule. I admit that I don't think people should actually be troubled for having ambiguous codes, but it's not so much trouble to remove those that only say "fan" (you can still put those on codes for characters/relationships if they include all the characters though) and keep the more specific codes. It's not even a rule that codes are a must, so basically, you could just remove all of them to get off troubles, and then make some when you have the time, I think (correct me if I'm wrong). Most of the codes I make already specify what exactly the fanlisting is for, with the exception of characters, because I myself want it to be clear.
Being troubled for putting a picture of a manga-ka and writing "fan" just because other people are ignorant is a terrible excuse. I really disagree with this, seeing as I have no idea what most manga-ka look like. I like the manga-ka for his/her work, not because of how he/she might look - isn't that the reason for most people? Why should we be called ignorant for that?
Lastly, I'm not a staffer, but I doubt any of the staffers are so close-minded that they would reject people just because they aren't on one line with eachother. Even if they don't agree with some points, I'm sure they are unbiased when it comes to approving people. Isn't it the same when regular members post an adoption thread? I've never done adoptions myself, but I know I'd want the best owners for them if I ever did. Sure, I can imagine being a little angry for being rejected, but if you post something in an angry manner, how must the one approved feel reading that? Put yourself in the shoes of the one approved - how would you feel reading such a post because of a recent rejection? Ofcourse, I'm sad too when I get rejected, but there must have been a reason why I wasn't approved and someone else was. You could always make a fanlisting, even if there's already an approved one, and there'll probably always be people who will join. For example, I've had an unapproved CCS series fanlisting in the past, which had quite a few members, but still nothing compared to the approved one, but I didn't mind that at all. If you look at it realistically, it's just some a list of people who like the same subject, and it's "special" because hey, it's approved by TAFL/TFL!
This all is just my opinion, and I don't mean to disrepect anyone with what I've said, it's just how I think about what's been mentioned.
-
Well, I've been reading this thread since yesterday and haven't commented since I never make sense but I feel like saying something that may sound a repeat of what everyone has said, but I'll say it anyway. I have been a fanlisting owner since 2004 and an active board member for a few months now.
About the updates taking too long part. I understand everyone wants things in a second, or less if they could. Sure, sometimes updates may take a while but think, its not a robot or an automatic script who update the network, its people! People with lives, work, studies, family!!! I can only imagine how difficult it must be for our staffers, board administrators, even trouble checkers to keep this place running after so long!!! Its easy to judge from the outside and throw the first stone, try putting yourself in their perspective!! Running a site is quite a challenge, not to mention a whole network thats made up by so many different people.
About the code rule, there was something I didn't like. Sure its easier to put the word fan instead of the name of the subject, but some codes don't even make any sense or relation with the subject and just get the word fan on them. I like putting the names, I mean some people may not know what the subject looks like and the name helps. You shouldn't call people who know less than you ignorant, no one was born knowing it all. Is it so difficult to remove them and follow the rule? You don't have to have a billion codes, just one thats right is ok. When this rule first came to my attention, I removed the ones I knew were wrong and that was the end of that. If lots of people can do that, I don't think its that bad.
The whole relationships thing about more than 3 characters. At first I wondered about this, especially when I wanted to own the Kira, Athrun, Lacus and Cagalli fanlisting. But like it has been mentioned before, there are very few 4 or more character relationships that would make sense. And I also highly doubt that they will all be as meaningful as others. Maybe like some people mentioned before, it would be nice if there was a way to make some of these relationships legitimate so they can be open for application. The your mood thread, I admit I was sad when it was closed because I loved being to say I was sad and someone would be so kind and try and cheer me up. It would be nice to have more threads to discuss what you love or say what you feel, in a nice manner of course.
Oh and about the staffers feeling "all high and mighty" and approving who they want. I do admit that a long time ago this crossed my mind because I was soo pissed I got rejected for a fanlisting. I was so mad I asked the staffer who sent me the rejection and she was kind and explained what they take into consideration when approving and rejecting. Again, I put myself in their shoes, and now when I get rejected, though it hurts, I'm sure it wasn't easy for them to make a choice, and I am more than sure that they all feel awful when they have to reject someone. Because again, its people who make this place work, not a script. If there we'rent any rules, this place wouldn't be as nice as it is now, just imagine all the crazyness and spamming there would be.
Well this is my opinion.
-
First off, I think the 6 pending rule might be even too much. Yes, a lot of people might be fans of something, but truely is it fair if you have a lot of pending when someone could have only applied for that one thing? And if you got all 6 you applied for then you got way too much to do at one time.
With the whole "no fan on the code" thing. I think people should just get over that fact. The rule was made awhile back and nobody complained until now? I see how that might have been stressful for people to change all of their codes for the rule, but a lot of people on the net might think that you have a fanlisting for a character instead of a series or song or what not.
For the offtopic chit chat, a lot of peoples feelings were getting hurt, and I know mine did too in the end of what are you doing? I know it was fun to have and stuff, and it was a way of getting close to others. But a lot of people were upset about it and didn't like it. If the staff thinks that the majority of people are getting their feelings hurt then they should remove the topic because no one wants hard feelings her.
And yeah, I think people are making too big of a deal out of something so small. If you don't like how the staffers work or the boards then you don't have to come here and you don't have to talk to them? And yeah thats my feelings =]
-
[quote name='Chibi-chan' post='217569' date='Oct 28 2007, 04:29 AM']It's not even a rule that codes are a must, so basically, you could just remove all of them to get off troubles, and then make some when you have the time, I think (correct me if I'm wrong).[/quote]
That's completely true ^_^
-
I have to say that all the opinions on this thread are completely legitimate, and it is your right to voice your opinions. I do agree with what Rosemary said about TAFL not being a democracy. It's a privilege, not a right to be listed at the website, and if you want to be, then it's your duty to comply with the rules. You are still free to run a fanlisting that isn't TAFL approved. The network is not the be all and end all of fanlistings, it's merely a place to list them.
Those are my two cents, and to be honest, I'm disappointed about all these complaints. I think this network is run as effectively and as appropriately as it could be and while we can't please everyone, I still maintain that being a part of the network is FUN, and that's what's important.
-
Initially, I was unsure whether to post here or not, given that everything I could possibly say has already been already explained wonderfully by other fellow staffers and board members, but hey, I might as well give my two cents ^_^
Everyone is absolutely welcomed to voice his/her opinions and constructive criticism anytime they want as you're all doing here, of course that's a given! But reading the first post of this topic, I felt terribly sad, and I suddenly realized what I found most disappointing about that: seems like there are people who forget we are human beings, and not only us staffers, but other members of this wonderful community as well (because I really find it wonderful, in all honesty: I moderate and visit other places and I've never found anything as peaceful and friendly as this little cozy corner of the net).
I'm not trying to bring up victimism to this issue, just take this as a reminder: rules are there to organize, to sort things in the most objective way, to find an option which satisfies most people (not everyone, that's impossible!) and to help us out, for example, when we approve new fanlistings, because we are humans (as I said) and we can't possibly know every anime/manga out there and if a 4+ relationship fanlisting is valid or not. TFL fanlistings are not plugged here because that would be unfair: why give a special treatment to a certain category because statistically, anime/manga fans are also gamers? (and I'm both): when a decision is made in that aspect, we can't make exceptions, we need to be consistent. Topics are closed mostly when people start to forget about other people's feelings. The application limit is there to give everyone a chance. I feel horrible when I'm doing rejections because I inevitably think how that person will feel, and I had to reject close friends more than a couple of times. If you think about it, everything comes down to understand and emphatize with how others might feel, more or less.
I'm one of those staffers that can't frequent these boards as much as they like, because I have a life, a family, a boyfriend, studies and other Internet duties. And reading that post I felt bad about this fact even though I can't do anything about it because, well, that's how my life is. And I think I shouldn't feel this way. Before complaining about things like that, I'd first try and put myself in the other's shoes. See? Here it is again.
I know I digressed, and I'm sorry. If there was a point I wanted to make clear with all that is that I find this network runs smoothly with our current rules, and that people should forget that idea about the godlike!staffer, because no matter what we decide, our feelings are behind it. We know we try to be as objective as we can, and for doing so we try to think how will all of you will feel, but it's very sad some people can't do the same with us.
-
I don't really come around here as much as I do the TFL.org board, but d00d, I have something to say today. I have so much to say, actually, I shall put it all in...dun dun dun...LIST FORM. ^_^
1. Part of being a staff member/moderator is to answer questions. They know the answer to a lot of shiz. If there is a question that is obviously answered somewhere on this site, I see no point in having the ENTIRE network "discuss" it. That's why if a SS gets to a question first and answers it 100%, why keep the topic open? Most everything you need to know is listed somewhere in this site or forum. TAFL is not that hard to understand, yo.
2. This is a separate network from TFL. Anime/Manga = here. Everything else = TFL. I don't know how someone can come up with an idea like the "Senior Staff [have] nothing better to do than track [you] down and make sure no one knows about [your] one TFL fanlisting that needs a home" spiel. TBH, there is more you can do to adopt out a fanlisting than post here at TAFL. You could...post at TFL (which has more members/visitors), email the members of your fanlisting(s) and ask them, post on the TFL LJ community, post on your blog/website, etc etc etc. See where I am going?
3. The off-topic chat subforums are NOT A CHATROOM. I can say this from being a webmaster myself with DreamHost: bandwidth and hosting is EXPENSIVE. I do not throw money out of my wallet just to have people use my server like an endless chatroom. If you want to discuss something in-depth for a loooong time with a few people in particular, why not get MSN/AIM/Trillian/ICQ/QQ/etc? ALSO, that is the place to ask someone "What are you doing [right now]" and "What is your mood today". I am the moderator of a message board, too; if I saw people making pointless threads like that, I would delete/close them instantly. They make NO conversation. Everyone posts one-liner posts. Waste of space, IMO.
4. I do realize and hear you on the whole "6 upcoming" rule. I understand that some people can push out a fanlisting faster than a mom can have a C-section, but think there needs to be a limit. My view is that TFL is like...what...40,000 fanlistings now across a bazillion categories. This network is freaking TINY compared to that! If you make a mathematical ratio between TAFL and TFL and put the number of fanlistings in the network compared to the number of fanlistings on upcoming you are allowed, MATHEMATICALLY SPEAKING.......you should only have 3.49046439 fanlistings allowed on upcoming here at TAFL at one time. So basically, TAFL is doubling the amount. I think that is good enough.
5. I ain't gonna get into the code rules. TBH, I think they are needed. The end.
6. Relationships rule? Needed, as well. Everyone else has covered why.
7. Staffers aren't gods. Neither are the senior staff. If they scare you for some odd reason, that's your perceptual issue. I have no idea why anyone would think the staff are "scary". They are actually quite lovely people!
8. "We're sure that every other member has to agree with at least one of our points": Sorry. You got that one wrong. I don't agree with you on anything, but your voice has definitely been heard.
Teh end. Thank you.
-
Friends - staffer and non-staffer alike - have pointed me to this post while I'm supposedly "on leave" (XD) and well, here are my ugly two cents!
To start off, statements like "We are not democracy" is assumed naturally legitimate at organizations like TAFL. Staffers are required to have faith in their own decisions for two main reasons:
(1) Try being indecisive and you'll be buried with backlogs and contact forms tomorrow. (For Characters/Series? In less than 6 hours :))
(2) Nobody was a staffer before they became one. (We do know what being rejected is about!)
The feelings involved when we approve or reject are absolutely serious: it's a pure sense of responsibility of keeping our evergrowing database for as organized as possible, of doing what we think would lessen the level of potential dissatisfaction among members. Whether we're successful is another story, but please understand that the motivation is always there :) I hope the SS won't mind me saying this, but we staffers also face official warnings through e-mail if we don't update once a month unless there's a good reason: you can't avoid miscommunication 100% esp. when most of us live in different time zones and have different life styles.
Now to speak from the view of a fanlisting owner: let's try to be a bit more positive about the situation we're placed in. To writers of the original post: will you be confident that if one day all your needs are met, you will be forever happy at the board? Not likely. It's human nature to constantly strive for the higher and better, so one need being fulfilled would simply lead to the urge of finding another "problem". Therefore the real problem as an individual fanlisting maintainer would be: is it really something I must do without? I admit that in spite of being a staffer myself, I've secretly hoped for the relationship limit to be lifted for certain subjects I like. But I also realize that it'd get out of hands if we don't sacrifice a bit of personal desire for a more stable future. Everyone who decides to participate at TAFL should know that there's always a price to pay: it won't be as "thrilling", for lack of better words, to be approved for something if it's easily acquired.
On the other hand, I'm sure the chosen tone in the original post is what instantly triggered the list of defense after. To the posters of this topic: I personally believe that you probably didn't mean half of the negatively worded comments in your original post, but you see, people are easily deceived by words :P As a result, I would suggest a different approach from now on, such as using this board to discuss how you think would improve the quality of your application among friends and fellow FL owners. I'm sure a lot of people are willing to share those little tips they have, using what Chisa said as an example: mentioning that you have already finished X and Y upcomings in an application proves to be a really good trick to eliminate potential bias well. (I've tried that a few times myself ^^)
My bottom line? Let's just save ourselves some work, be happy about what we have and keep a smile :D
-
I'm coming out of my internet hibernation to respond to this thread, which I will say outright that I think it is absolutely ridiculous something like this is brought up in such a manner. To criticize a group of people under the guise of "discussion", and doing so anonymously, on top of it all, is extremely cowardly. It blows my mind how self-righteous you think yourselves are, to bring out an attack on the governance of the TAFL network, yet not revealing your own identities. Do you know how much this undermines your integrity? Do you know how this will in effect make people take this topic less seriously? If you really wanted to raise your opinions to be discussed in a fair and just audience, why don't you put your name on it? You talk about a democratic process, yet in turn, you hide behind a veil of secrecy in order to preserve your ego. This is the first and foremost reason why I don't think you should be taken seriously at all. You haven't shown any indication that you want to be.
Furthermore, I think that because you do not reveal your names, you actually don't have that much support behind your accusations. If you had a forum of individuals backing up your claim, you would proudly reveal yourselves. By guising your post as "discussion" and posting anonymously, you are trying to gauge and gather "support", thus effectively saving your own behinds from any inadvertent consequences.
Lastly, I would like to conclude this portion of my post by saying, if you so strongly believe in your claims, why do you not do anything constructive towards your ends? Instead of whining about "unfair rules", such as you claim, why don't you suggest alternatives or solutions to the "problems"? Would this not be a more efficient way to meet your goals? All you did was make elementary statements about your grievances. So now, we're still stuck at the first step. Nothing is changing; and people are just getting more frustrated. Thus, I ask, was this your intent?
-----------------------------------------------------
And, now, to address the topics you have raised:
Forum related administration
I will only touch lightly on this topic since I'm not a spammer of the Boards like I used to be, and therefore wouldn't have the most relevant things to say. I would just like to point out that, as somebody who has moderated large forums with screaming fangirls, it is an extremely tedious and, frankly, annoying task. Do you have any idea how much time is spent reading each post that is made everyday, to make sure that they adhere to the rules? Usually at a forum of this size, there are only a handful of administrators for the hundreds and thousands of regular members, who, quite frankly, can do a lot of damage in a matter of hours. Just to be able to keep up with the volume of posts made per day is not easy. Also, might I point out that, forum administrators don't actually like to warn/ban people or delete threads. Forums are supposed to be fun, and that's why we're here. But somebody has to be the police.
In conclusion, forums have rules and they must be enforced. Otherwise things would get out of hand. If there is not a forum for your tastes here, then you can find another place or even create your own. Then you can make your own rules.
Fanlisting rules
I can go on and on about rules, but I'll try to keep it simple. I must stress the fact that rules are there for a reason. TAFL staffers don't just make rules because they hate you. They don't, I can assure you. They make rules because it makes the network easier to manage. Might I remind you that the TAFL network has almost 6500 fanlistings. That's A LOT. And there are only 21 staffers, 14 of whom take care of the categories, which are most relevant to fanlisting owners. In order to manage a network this size, including the volume of inquiries received on a daily basis, there has to be governance.
Again, I ask you, have you ever thought about why these rules were put in place? Whether it be the 6 upcoming or 3 pending... They are there to make it easier for the staffers, who, I might remind you, are working for free for YOU, to manage the sheer amount of existing, upcoming, and troubled fanlistings that we have. The anime/manga fandom, as I'm sure you know, is GIGANTIC. You try managing it without wanting bang your head on the wall. It's mind numbing sometimes. These rules were put in place so that 1) staffers get a manageable load for the amount of time they're putting into this work and 2) so that every potential fanlisting owner has a chance to own a fanlisting. This benefits both parties. Because if staffers don't have time to manage, no one will own fanlistings, well at least not ones approved by TAFL. So I beseech you, have some respect and appreciation for staffers. They take countless hours out of their precious days so you can own fanlistings.
As for the codes rule, all I can say is that it's a way to standardize. Is it really that hard to put the subject of the fanlisting on codes? It takes all of 5 seconds, seriously.
Staffer bias
First of all, I don't think you use the term "bias" in the right context, but what the hell. You guys aren't saints anyway. I think it's merely perception that Staffers seem distant and are only authoritative when it comes to the forum. You have to keep in mind that Staffers have to play two roles, one obviously is to be enforcers of Network rules and the latter is to be a participating member of the community. I think you need to distinguish those roles when you're reading a Staffer's post and put it in context. What you say as "scolding" is a mere policing of the rules. You shouldn't blame them or condemn them just because they're doing their job. What is wrong with doing their jobs? Part of their jobs is also to make sure fanlistings are approved, etc. Are you saying they should stop doing that too? Don't take things for granted. It only makes you seem immature. You can't have candy all the time.
Is it too much to ask to have Staffers who will talk to everyone and not make us feel like we're the scum of the earth because we got a little angry about a rejection or ungrateful about something else?
In response to that, I ask, have you ever considered Staffers as your fellow community members? As your "friends" that you're socializing with in this forum. I think not. You already come with the bias that Staffers only want to put you down. So why do you have the right to talk about Staffer bias? To me, it just seems like you're using this as a convenient excuse to blame Staffers on whatever you're unhappy about.
-----------------------------------------------------
Originally, I was going to post this anonymously due to the harshness of my words. But I reconsidered. Because I don't want to be a coward like you. I have already prepared myself for whatever rebuttals might come as a result. So feel free to attack my argument; I welcome it.
And lastly I just want to say how disrespectful you have been. For all the the time and work that TAFL Staffers have put in, how dare you try to slander their character? Shame on you.
-
Alright, so I've been trying to stay away from this thread, because I have a couple strong opinions and several of the responses to the initial post also amuse me. Most people might as well have wrote *ditto's Chisa* because that's what most responses are, except that they're in different tones. However, it's great to see that this thread has received the attention that its original posters wanted - positive or negative, it's feedback at least.
Of course it would receive negative feedback. That's why this thread is posted anonymously, because the authors already considered all outcomes. I'm not surprised to see so many angered responses from staffers; calling anyone biased, intimidating, or generally saying that someone thinks highly of themselves results in negative feelings. Personally, I don't feel that the staffers are biased, because whenever I have questions or comments, they always answer mine, just like they answer anyone else's, in the same tone they always use. Meanwhile, as for whether they are intimidating, I am personally intimidated by this board often, which is why I don't post frequently anymore. Not because of the way any staffer responds to me in particular, but mostly because I'm not as into anime as most people here are (names like Naruto, Darker and Black, Bleach, etc - popular anime often posted here, and I'm not that familiar with them). I don't feel as though I fit in, but since this is an anime/manga board, it's pretty easy to see why. ^_^
Before I go on, there is something that I feel the need to point out.
[quote name='arashi' post='218022' date='Oct 31 2007, 03:38 PM']Furthermore, I think that because you do not reveal your names, you actually don't have that much support behind your accusations. If you had a forum of individuals backing up your claim, you would proudly reveal yourselves. By guising your post as "discussion" and posting anonymously, you are trying to gauge and gather "support", thus effectively saving your own behinds from any inadvertent consequences.
Lastly, I would like to conclude this portion of my post by saying, if you so strongly believe in your claims, why do you not do anything constructive towards your ends? Instead of whining about "unfair rules", such as you claim, why don't you suggest alternatives or solutions to the "problems"?
--
And lastly I just want to say how disrespectful you have been. For all the the time and work that TAFL Staffers have put in, how dare you try to slander their character? Shame on you.[/quote]
I'm sorry Arashi, but I feel that you are the one who is being disrespectful. This topic is posted anonymously because they fear bias from staffers and fellow board members. If TAFL didn't welcome this, this topic would have been closed well before you had the chance to post and the Anonymous account wouldn't exist in the first place. I don't feel that they are at all cowardly because they had the guts to post this where everyone could see, staffers and board members and strangers alike. And you're right about the "effective saving" of themselves from any "inadvertent consequences." They already pointed this out as the reason they're anonymous in their original post.
They do bring up alternatives to the situations they describe - an extra information box in the application form so that relationships between more than three characters can be described and documented and proved. For 6 upcoming and 3 pending, they suggest the numbers be raised. For codes, they suggest that the word "fan" be allowed.
And if I'm not totally illiterate, I think it looks like you're trying to slander their character with your claims of "cowardice" even though you considered being anonymous yourself and therefore cowardly by your own definition. I'm sorry that I singled you out in particular, but of all the posts I've read in this thread, I was most offended by yours. I can't help but wonder if your tone would be different if you knew the authors of the thread personally.
--
So anyway, about the points that are brought up in the original post. Honestly, I don't care about any of the board related things since I'm not really an active poster here, though I do read the boards frequently. What I'm interested in are the network rules that are brought up for discussion. I also don't apply often here since as I said before I'm not as into anime, so 3 pending isn't so bad, but I do agree that the number is rather low. If I were into more anime I'd probably be applying for a lot more things... and I disagree with some of the responses stating that this would give collectors a better chance, because staffers always give the fanlisting to the people who care about the subject most - the best applicant possible. Right? Since collectors apply for popular subjects and don't really give a flying crap about them, I don't see why weeding them out is such a problem.
Relationships- I agree. There are legitimate relationships out there between four or more characters, although as it was pointed out a lot of these can be applied for under characters (meanwhile a lot of them cannot, thanks to the group rule). A secondary textarea for more information about the relationship would make it easier for the staff to sift through them. If nothing is written in it without any legitimate proof of the relationship actually existing, why can't the staff simply ignore it or reject it? The staff already has the ability to reject anything they want without having to explain themselves, so I don't really see the problem here. Disclaimer: I am not a staffer at either fanlisting network and I also don't have a life, so I obviously have no idea what staffers have to go through at all. I freely and openly admit that. :D
I also don't have much of a problem with the 6 upcoming rule, but again if I were into more anime/manga, this could be a problem. If anything, I most agree with you on the codes rule. Admittedly, I don't like codes with simply "fan" on them and always write the subject on the codes; it just looks nicer to me. But I understand why you would want to write "fan" on some, especially for long songs or episodes, or long series names. It doesn't look good when they're abbreviated and it doesn't look good when they're written out in full because then there's basically no more picture left. It would be awesome if the code rule could at least lift the "fan" ban on 50x50 codes (though maybe require that at least one of them have the actual subject matter on them?), because often times they're too small to squeeze text on there. At least 75x50, 100x35, 100x50 and onward have more width and room to write down things like , even if it is only a couple more pixels.
Though, there isn't any use in hoping that the code rule be changed, because it's already been addressed several times and apparently isn't changing anytime soon, if ever. What I'm grateful for is that the layout rule that had first come in addition to the codes rule was lifted. That rule was ridiculous compared to the codes rule, in my opinion, and Sasa's post (for those of you who remember) showed that. Most importantly, it showed that TAFL staff does care about the community and does what they feel is best for it. In all honesty I was rather dumbfounded at the phrase "TAFL is not a democracy" when I read it, because even though it's not a democracy, it seemed as though the network rules that were brought up weren't even considered, and it seems that they should be. Obviously a single opinion doesn't have to cause a complete and immediate change, but the feeling I get is that the criticism concerning network policies were glanced at and tossed aside as "already addressed." I understand not wanting to repeat yourself or budge on the matter, but still, it makes the authors look insignificant in the eyes of the community, especially with the "my way or the highway" attitude - which may or may not be the entire reason the authors feel intimidated in the first place.
Anyway, my post is long enough, so I'll just leave it at this. I'm sure I'll go down in flames for daring to agree with the authors at all, let alone stand up for them, but at least I finally posted. Yay.
-
I don't think I'm in much of a position to say anything since I don't really frequent the boards (maybe 'stalk' is a better word. =P)
This next argument has been derived from the above - how, when we want to discuss rules, we are basically just told "No" without a good reason. Why shouldn't we, the people of TAFL, not have a say in how this network is run? We're sure that many people would agree with us on each of those points made above, but yet we don't get any say on it. Even our opinions about things that should/shouldn't be approvable are dismissed, and often solely on the category staffer's opinions on series they aren't even familiar with. Threads about the codes rule and 4 person + relationship rule are closed without discussion, and although the upcoming/pending rules have been said to be "discussed", we were never updated on the progress. We have a right to know that our opinions are taken seriously.
Actually I think the presence of a forum to actually let us post our views is proof that the network does welcome feedback from its users. Of course, you can give all the feedback you want, but there is no guarantee that whatever you suggested may be implemented no matter how fabulous you think it is. (Apply this to your local town/mayor/district/province/whatever. The government ain't gonna make some changes just because you think it should be this way.) Personally, the only rule I'm having a bit of a problem understanding now is the Ambiguous Codes rule. (I mean...it's just buttons! The fans aren't gonna care whether the codes accurately reflect the subject! They just wanna have a nice shiny button to link back the site with.) I posted a thread (http://\"http://board.animefanlistings.org/index.php?showtopic=14209\") regarding it, the staffers have read and decided that it will not change. That's a fact. So you either go with the flow or start sulking at how miserable this place is. I'll choose the former if I want to keep my fanlistings within this network. This is their ground, so you really gotta play with their rules, no matter how much you're against it. ^_^
-
I hope you don't feel as if I'm attacking you (because I most certainly am not ^_^) but I can't help but address some of your points.
[quote name='Veles' post='218047' date='Oct 31 2007, 04:01 PM']They do bring up alternatives to the situations they describe - an extra information box in the application form so that relationships between more than three characters can be described and documented and proved. For 6 upcoming and 3 pending, they suggest the numbers be raised. For codes, they suggest that the word "fan" be allowed.[/quote]
I must disagree with this; I can't find any alternative solutions in the original post; 'alternative suggestions' being defined as 'compromise' in my books :D The extra information box idea was posted by Mistress Puff, not the original posters. I also cannot find any alternatives voiced about the 6 upcoming/ 3 pending rule. An alternative suggestion would be, for example, telling us what exact numbers they would like the numbers to be raised to. As for the codes, asking for the word 'fan' to be allowed is simply asking for the rule to be lifted altogether (though actually, codes with only 'fan' on it are allowed in certain categories. We did not ban the word 'fan' altogether, we simply want the codes to not be ambiguous).
[quote name='Veles' post='218047' date='Oct 31 2007, 04:01 PM']Relationships- I agree. There are legitimate relationships out there between four or more characters, although as it was pointed out a lot of these can be applied for under characters (meanwhile a lot of them cannot, thanks to the group rule). A secondary textarea for more information about the relationship would make it easier for the staff to sift through them. If nothing is written in it without any legitimate proof of the relationship actually existing, why can't the staff simply ignore it or reject it? The staff already has the ability to reject anything they want without having to explain themselves, so I don't really see the problem here. Disclaimer: I am not a staffer at either fanlisting network and I also don't have a life, so I obviously have no idea what staffers have to go through at all. I freely and openly admit that. smile.gif[/quote]
If you are the only applicant, you will be approved, so no, we don't have the ability to reject anything without explaining ourselves ^_^ You are also always free to ask as to why the application was rejected as well, though I'd imagine the staffer would tell you the reason regardless (i.e. applying for a manhwa, series is too new, unapprovable subject for x reason, etc.) As for the box idea, the thing with that is, as I mentioned before, is that it grants us the "god-status" that nobody wants, to allow us to determine whether the 4+ person relationship is legitimate or not. If we approve Person A for a 4+ relationship, but rejected Person B for a 4+ relationship just because we don't find it legitimate despite whatever proof Person B may have provided -- it honestly wouldn't be fair to any of you. The box idea (extra information field) itself is fine for helping the staffer with URLs and whatnot like at TFL, but for the 4+ relationships, it simply wouldn't be fair.
-
I'm actually really scared to post here... but here goes:
I think maybe this thread has gotten out of control. I fully understand the need to post this thread. Rosemary pointed out that TAFL is not a democracy. However, in some aspect I believe we are. We are however allowed to voice our opinions, and guys believe it or not, our opinions are taken into consideration. I mean, when the staff decided to break up the Characters category into two separate categories, weren't we all allowed to vote on it? And ultimately, guys: the staff works for us. Things may be slow sometimes, but we all have lives. It's not like the staff just sits on their asses with their laptops clutched to them and refresh their inboxes as they await our applications. I think that sometimes, in the heat of excitement, that factor is forgotten.
This person who posted this thread had a very fine reason for doing so. They obviously just wanted to voice their opinion(s) and ultimately, they want what we all want: a clean, smooth, network. Sure, there maybe some rules here, that we all aren't on the same page on... but is there really a need to... kill each other? I'm especially upset over what this thread is doing to us! This thread is pinning us up against each other as if we're in some type of war. I mean, we all have different opinions. Is that really a need to call each other out on?
One person called this thread starter a coward, and someone else responded by calling them a coward back. Isn't the point of fanlistings to unite fans? But more importantly... to unite friends?
Rules are put into effect for a reason. The Senior Staff (no matter who refuses to believe it) is only looking out for us. Most of these rules aren't anything new, and you guys were fine with them until this topic started. ^_^ WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG? *in teenage-girl-crying-mode*
And before I finish this: I agree, there are some rules I don't agree with, and there are some Senior Staff decisions that really didn't sit nicely with me at first, but then I realized why there here: to work with us, and to help us.
-
[quote name='Korey' post='218056' date='Oct 31 2007, 08:32 PM']Sure, there maybe some rules here, that we all aren't on the same page on... but is there really a need to... kill each other? I'm especially upset over what this thread is doing to us! This thread is pinning us up against each other as if we're in some type of war.[/quote]
Actually, I disagree with that. I mean, sure, inside this particular thread things are getting pretty heated, but have you noticed how the board is so much closer outside? All of the wonderful new threads that everyone has posted is bringing tons of enthusiasm to everyone and people are really getting along- and in a non-spammy way, like Rosemary pointed out that the "Your Mood" thread was. I think that the mood at AFL has been suddenly lifted and I love getting to know things about everyone else.
So yes, while I wish it didn't take a thread full of hurt feelings to start it, I think things are changing for the better ^_^
-
[quote name='Carolyn' post='218062' date='Oct 31 2007, 08:43 PM'][quote name='Korey' post='218056' date='Oct 31 2007, 08:32 PM']Sure, there maybe some rules here, that we all aren't on the same page on... but is there really a need to... kill each other? I'm especially upset over what this thread is doing to us! This thread is pinning us up against each other as if we're in some type of war.[/quote]
Actually, I disagree with that. I mean, sure, inside this particular thread things are getting pretty heated, but have you noticed how the board is so much closer outside? All of the wonderful new threads that everyone has posted is bringing tons of enthusiasm to everyone and people are really getting along- and in a non-spammy way, like Rosemary pointed out that the "Your Mood" thread was. I think that the mood at AFL has been suddenly lifted and I love getting to know things about everyone else.
So yes, while I wish it didn't take a thread full of hurt feelings to start it, I think things are changing for the better ^_^
[/quote]
Actually, I have noticed. :D But I was talking about this thread. I am however, glad to see things are working out! ^_^
*hugs you all!*
-
[quote name='Chisa' post='218054' date='Oct 31 2007, 08:32 PM']I hope you don't feel as if I'm attacking you (because I most certainly am not ^_^) but I can't help but address some of your points.
I must disagree with this; I can't find any alternative solutions in the original post; 'alternative suggestions' being defined as 'compromise' in my books :D The extra information box idea was posted by Mistress Puff, not the original posters. I also cannot find any alternatives voiced about the 6 upcoming/ 3 pending rule. An alternative suggestion would be, for example, telling us what exact numbers they would like the numbers to be raised to. As for the codes, asking for the word 'fan' to be allowed is simply asking for the rule to be lifted altogether (though actually, codes with only 'fan' on it are allowed in certain categories. We did not ban the word 'fan' altogether, we simply want the codes to not be ambiguous).
If you are the only applicant, you will be approved, so no, we don't have the ability to reject anything without explaining ourselves ^_^ You are also always free to ask as to why the application was rejected as well, though I'd imagine the staffer would tell you the reason regardless (i.e. applying for a manhwa, series is too new, unapprovable subject for x reason, etc.) As for the box idea, the thing with that is, as I mentioned before, is that it grants us the "god-status" that nobody wants, to allow us to determine whether the 4+ person relationship is legitimate or not. If we approve Person A for a 4+ relationship, but rejected Person B for a 4+ relationship just because we don't find it legitimate despite whatever proof Person B may have provided -- it honestly wouldn't be fair to any of you. The box idea (extra information field) itself is fine for helping the staffer with URLs and whatnot like at TFL, but for the 4+ relationships, it simply wouldn't be fair.[/quote]
On the contrary, I don't feel attacked at all. :)
In response, I went back to recheck the input box suggestion, and you are absolutely right. I could have sworn I'd read the input box in the original post, but apparently not! At the same time, it was the original post that inspired the idea, and I still think it's a great idea that should be considered. ;) I still stand by the others though. They don't mention an exact number, but they suggest that it be raised. It would be hard to tack an ideal number on these, I would assume (mind you, as I stated earlier, these particular rules don't bother me) and I think that part of the reason they leave it open like that is for the network to discuss it. However, I don't want to make excuses for the original authors because I don't know if that was their intent. Meanwhile, for codes, it's not really lifting the rule altogether to allow the word "fan" to be in place, in my opinion. I think the most important part of a code is using a picture that actually reflects the subject. I can understand why simply "fan" is not allowed on, for example, a series fanlisting, because a series can be reflected by characters, places, items and whatnot. I realize that the word "fan" isn't banned altogether (and looks very nice with subjects a lot of the time, too! :)) although I think it would be really awesome if the TAFL rules listed all the categories where "fan" is not allowed to be the only word (it gives examples on the actual rules page, but does it list all of them?).
Meanwhile, staffer-wise, I again put up my sad little disclaimer that I have never been and am not a staffer and I realize that I therefore don't know much about them or what they go through, what they are and are not allowed to do, etcetera. The reason that I made that claim is because of this on the TAFL rules page:
The staff has final right to not approve a fanlisting.
Inappropriate or ridiculous subjects can be refused by the staff. Please be sensible when applying for a fanlisting.
If a relationship doesn't have any foundation (which, proof could be provided with Puff's nifty idea), can't the staffer(s) reject it, regardless of how many applicants there are? But again, I am not a staffer, and I don't know how things operate behind the scenes, so to speak. It's a bit depressing that the input box idea allows for more complications. I would think that the approval for a legitimate 4+ relationship (with proof) would be easier with the input box thing there, especially if there are people on staff that can vouch that the relationship exists after having watched the anime, read the manga or what have you. But I realize how that can be unfair too as you guys haven't seen/read every anime/manga in the world and can't approve things based on that either. :/ I want to thank you for that little epiphany, because I wouldn't have had it if you hadn't poked me here. ;)
-
Additional points to follow.
If TAFL didn't welcome this, this topic would have been closed well before you had the chance to post and the Anonymous account wouldn't exist in the first place.
In all honesty I was rather dumbfounded at the phrase "TAFL is not a democracy" when I read it, because even though it's not a democracy, it seemed as though the network rules that were brought up weren't even considered, and it seems that they should be. Obviously a single opinion doesn't have to cause a complete and immediate change, but the feeling I get is that the criticism concerning network policies were glanced at and tossed aside as "already addressed." I understand not wanting to repeat yourself or budge on the matter, but still, it makes the authors look insignificant in the eyes of the community, especially with the "my way or the highway" attitude - which may or may not be the entire reason the authors feel intimidated in the first place.
First of all, IMO this topic is given a chance to accumulate responses mainly because the original poster specified to NOT close it, in a tone which I don't exactly consider as positive. Second, to hear that policies are "tossed aside" only because "it's been already addressed" - okay, maybe it's just me but that is contradictory. To reinforce what Rose pointed out nice and clear: issues mentioned in the original post have all been addressed before with clear reasons why, to which no apparent objection was raised each time - thus leading to our belief that they were settled. To see them being brought out more and more is just... weird, which is why I hope you see the reason why certain people are offended the way they are: it's as if certain efforts are ignored first-hand even before the whole "intimidation" issue.
This is more to a personal amusement than anything but: if you believe someone has offended the thread posters by speaking what s/he felt, what about the tone used by the original post? Really, nobody is trying to flame anyone in particular here because they don't know who they're speaking to. When some chose to remain anonymous and some chose not to, you can't avoid a slight difference between wordings and to call that offensive is highly contradictory. Though to be honest, it's great to see everyone speaking what they truly felt instead of being hesitant about whatever consequences that might come by. Like Carolyn said, everything is growing closer even if only in a queer form.
-
I was actually scared to post here, for fear that I might just suddenly throw a bitching fit, but I feel that I need to throw in my two cents here. I'm posting as a fellow FL owner and board member.
1.) About the General Discussions; I can't remember who actually brought this up, but I agree. The Senior Staff are the best to answer these questions, even if the topics were supposed to be opened to forum members to express their opinions. If they get to it first, who are we to bitch about them closing the topic, even if the answer they give is straightforward and answer the question? Although I feel that it might help, if you post a line at the top saying like
I would like this to be open for discussion with the other members, thanks!
It actually shows that even though you appreciate the Senior Staff actually taking the time to respond, it's a way of politely asking not to close the thread and open it to others for discussion. I'm not sure if this makes sense to any of you, since this is purely from my own personal experience.
2.) Non-TAFL fanlistings pimping; I'm on the fence for this. I feel that if the FL subject has a close connection with anime/manga, like BLEACH/Naruto/FMA games, it should be allowed. Even though it is a game, it was derived from an anime. This is just my opinion though. Similarly for adoption posts, I feel some leeway should be given as well for items closely connected with anime/manga.
3.) Off-topic Chit Chat; I'm quite content with the Off-topic Chit Chat forum now. Even though the Your Mood thread is gone, TAFL-ers are bonding over the awesome "Threads of Doom" started by Mitz, Rose and Espo. (And possibly more to come?) That's all I can ask for, since I'm making good friends on there as well.
4.) Upcoming/Pendings; I'm actually on the side of more upcomings and pendings allotted. I understand that it is difficult for the staffers to approve fanlistings or remove troubled fanlistings regularly, since they all have a life, and honestly, who doesn't? But with all the approvals coming in at the same time, and the chance to run a fanlisting that you love to death is gone because some other approvals came in first is rather unfair. I'd suggest changing it to 8 upcoming and 5 pending, but I also understand about the "collectors".
5.) The codes rule has been touched on many times, therefore I'll not mention it again.
6.) <4 relationships; Forgive me if I'm wrong, aren't teams approvable? Like from Naruto, Team 7, 8, 10 and Gai? And the divisions in BLEACH? Like 10th Division, 3rd Division etc. etc? I'm not very clear about this, but like Puff mentioned, maybe they can be approvable if the relationship was fully explained.
7.) Democracy?; The staff work for us, the members of TAFL. I think they deserve to run the network, sine all they're doing is just making sure that we get along fine, the board doesn't become spammy and there is no general malice on the network.
8.) Bias; Honestly? I feel it's rather childish and immature to actually throw a tantrum over getting rejected and for thinking that there is biasness on the network. If you actually read the rejection emails, you'll see that the staffers are making sure that the fanlistings go to the best home possible. They are doing their best to do something to benefit the fanlistings community, and you guys throw it back in their faces.
I'm sorry if I'm being a bit out of hand here, but this is my opinion and what I feel.
-
[quote name='Aerith' post='218102' date='Oct 31 2007, 10:27 PM']7.) Democracy?; The staff work for us, the members of TAFL. I think they deserve to run the network, sine all they're doing is just making sure that we get along fine, the board doesn't become spammy and there is no general malice on the network.[/quote]
Totally agree. ^_^ I think we take advantage of the staff a bit too much, sometimes. And we forget why their really there. :D
I think we should have "Staff Appreciation Day"! ^_^
-
I don't come around here much anymore for various reasons, and I tend to be on the fence with any message board lately, not just TAFL. I stop by to see if anything interesting is going on, but I don't post much because I don't have much to say, and my senior year of college is more important. To address a few things....
1) I don't mind not linking TFL fanlistings here. I'll be happy to link an adoption thread on the TFL boards in an adoption post here, but unless the fanlisting is for a manga/anime version of a video game, why bother? This doesn't seem like a big deal.
2) The code thing bothers me because I'm lazy, but it makes sense, so I don't have anything negative to say about it. My laziness is not any reason to change anything. ^_^
3) Staffers work hard. I may not agree with all of them, and I've been relatively verbal about this in the past, but TAFL is essentially an unpaid job. Once I removed the stick from my bum (because I just stopped caring about drama and internet things, for the most part), it became much easier to suck it up and deal. I think "suck it up and deal" has become my mantra over the past year (or so)... e.e
4) Seriously, the upcoming/pending is fine. No need to mess with it. It keeps me in check, and though I take good care of my fanlistings and (generally) build them in a timely manner (because, honestly, RL does sometimes get in the way of 'teh intarweb'), I have classes to attend, schoolwork to finish and a job to do. Fanlistings take priority after that, and that's how it should be (at least for me, I can't speak for anyone else).
5) Not everything will be a democracy. The internet is not a democracy, nor are message boards. Back to my previous mantra, I think that "suck it up and deal" is the way to go (for me, at least). I'm not so concerned about a message board or the internet as a whole being a democracy when certain countries that are "supposed" to be a democracy don't seem to have a very good handle on that. But politics are a different story, and I'd rather not discuss it. So.... let's not make TAFL be about politics, ok? Politics never make for pleasant bedfellows, and TAFL should be like a nice, snuggly duvet in the middle of winter, right?
6) As for bias, I'm going to put a different spin on this. Let's say that you go for a job interview, and you do your best. You think you did fantastic. You clearly think you're the right person for the job. But... there are other applicants. Maybe a few, maybe a lot. It's the HR manager's job to find the best person for the job. This may or may not be you. Did you not get the job because the HR person thinks "you suck" or "doesn't like you"? No. It's because there was someone better for the job, and the HR manager did his/her job by selecting that person. It's nothing personal, and I'd like to think that staffers wouldn't stoop low enough to reject someone for a fanlisting because of something personal. I'm sure that would never happen.
And, in conclusion, maybe I'm the last person anyone would think would be defending TAFL, because I'm pretty vocal when something bothers me. It's ok to be disappointed to not get a fanlisting, or upset that you think your fanlisting has gone on troubles unfairly, but a little maturity goes a long way. I'm not saying anything negative about anyone here (staffer or not), but the world doesn't end if you can't run a fanlisting. Make a shrine, join the approved one, make tons of codes and donate them to the approved one... find something else to make you happy. I've donated codes to several fanlistings that I desperately wanted, and it made me feel a lot better. There are always good alternatives if you take the time to look for them.
All in all, this just seems pretty trivial to me. I'm not going to trivialize anyone's concerns (because I feel that's rude, and any concerns have a right to be addressed in some way), but I felt this would be a good time to speak my mind. Let's leave the politics to the politicians, and keep TAFL as friendly of an environment as possible. I believe that everyone will be happier in the long run.
-
Please don't take this as me fanning the flames, but I know I would personally like to have the original posters come back and contribute further to this discussion. I'd like to see if anything that we've said has made a difference or if they do have ideas for improving the areas they highlighted. I'm not exactly sure why you're hesistating to participate?
And I'm really sorry that a few of you have felt scared to comment here. I really hope you all know that Staffers respect your opinions and your ability to come out and say what you really feel. We may disagree on various points, but that should never stop you from expressing your opinions. ^_^
Also, the rule about approvals and the staffer's "final say": You're right, that rule is in place to make sure that the subjects we're approving are actually worthwhile approvals, and it generally has nothing to do with the person applying. In I/L, for example, I've rejected numerous fanlistings that were just small off-hand things (or strange things, like people's groins). I'm not really sure why you would need an extra box on the application, though, when you could just explain it in the main comments box. XD
-
[quote name='Lexa' post='218137' date='Nov 1 2007, 01:27 AM']Also, the rule about approvals and the staffer's "final say": You're right, that rule is in place to make sure that the subjects we're approving are actually worthwhile approvals, and it generally has nothing to do with the person applying. In I/L, for example, I've rejected numerous fanlistings that were just small off-hand things (or strange things, like people's groins). I'm not really sure why you would need an extra box on the application, though, when you could just explain it in the main comments box. XD[/quote]
Probably because a lot of people will try to "fluff" up the subject and make it sound more meaningful than it really is. xD Personally, I love the "More Info" box in TFL, because I always feel the need to provide a staffer with more information beforehand. I would feel bad if my application made the staffer lose even 5 minutes of her spare time by trying to look up further information. You're the fan, so you're going to know the best resources for the said subject.
I would be perfectly happy with seeing a cap at 4 characters per relationship. It doesn't have to be 5+... Obviously, any amount of characters that can qualify as a group is too much. And for those who argued that a character group could be run instead, that's not fair to the subjects who aren't necessarily considered a group. They could just be friends traveling together -- Like on Pokemon or on Outlaw Star...
-
[quote name='Mistress Puff' post='218211' date='Nov 1 2007, 05:49 PM']Probably because a lot of people will try to "fluff" up the subject and make it sound more meaningful than it really is. xD[/quote]
But this is the exact reason that we don't allow 4+ relationships. The argument that everyone is presenting thus far is for the applicant to provide "proof" that the relationship is meaningful - but those are both variable terms. What is proof for a relationship to one person might be proof against the same relationship for someone else; something meaningful to one is not meaningful to others. Providing "proof" in this kind of situation basically just means "interpretations", and while several may be based on actual fact, they are still a form of opinion. This would put the staff in the position of approving or discrediting someone's opinions/beliefs and that's not fair to any involved.
As for the "voice" of this thread - I agree, the initial post had it's own tone that set the stage for the posts that followed, and it's obvious why people would be upset (I, for one, was one of them), but that doesn't mean we don't agree that discussion is healthy. It is; so no one should feel scared to comment here. That's the whole point of this thread still being open - in a round-about-kinda-way. ^_^
-
I'll throw a bit of 2 cents in about alternatives for making codes, since it was brought up that constructive suggestions were perhaps wanted, and because just about everything else I would have said has been said very well by others.
If you're making codes for a fanlisting that's for a series with a long name, just make it with the word 'series.' It says the same thing at that point and is no longer ambiguous. And it fits easily onto 50x50 codes. Or abbreviate the title. Same for songs or movies/ovas. Relationship codes can have just one person on them if they still say "person a/person b" or "x <3 x" or something like that (cause sometimes there's not good pics of the two people together, even if the relationship is really important in the anime/manga, trust me, I know, I run a FL like that and have codes like that).
If someone donates codes to you that just say 'fan,' remember that you don't have to use them. Sure, everyone loves getting donations (I know I do) but there's nothing anywhere that says you must take whatever is given you and use it. You wouldn't do it if they were really snag-nasty-ugly codes. If you like them and want to use them, just alter them a bit by putting something on them to make them not ambiguous. I did that to codes that were made for one of my listings and they still look lovely.
There's lots of options, you seem to just be focusing on this one thing rather than all the possibilities that are out there.
-
I will use the majority of this post to address the points raised by Veles, as they were addressed to me, but I will also add additional comments to the posts made in the past few days.
I want to start off by saying that, Veles, although you chose to call me out on my statements, I am not offended in the least. I actually am very impressed that you have so boldly stated your opinion. We need more people like you around here. Makes things spicy. This is the exact behavior I welcome, not like the original posters who have raised their issues anonymously. This just further proves my point: if you want to say something, come out and say it; don't hide behind a wall to protect yourself.
I think, Veles, you have misunderstood parts of my statement. I will quote you and respond:
I'm sorry Arashi, but I feel that you are the one who is being disrespectful. This topic is posted anonymously because they fear bias from staffers and fellow board members. If TAFL didn't welcome this, this topic would have been closed well before you had the chance to post and the Anonymous account wouldn't exist in the first place. I don't feel that they are at all cowardly because they had the guts to post this where everyone could see, staffers and board members and strangers alike. And you're right about the "effective saving" of themselves from any "inadvertent consequences." They already pointed this out as the reason they're anonymous in their original post.
You are quite right. The original posters posted anonymously in order to prevent themselves from suffering any "inadvertent consequences". That is the exact reason why I'm calling them cowardly (http://\"http://"http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/coward\"). This behavior is cowardly. Thank you for proving my point. And I'll bring this up later, but I don't think I can disrespect someone I don't really know the identify of. It's kinda hard. Now, if the original posters felt that they were disrespected, they should have considered the fact that posting anonymously effectively forfeited their right to any rights a clearly named post would have granted them.
They do bring up alternatives to the situations they describe - an extra information box in the application form so that relationships between more than three characters can be described and documented and proved. For 6 upcoming and 3 pending, they suggest the numbers be raised. For codes, they suggest that the word "fan" be allowed.
Yes, you are correct. However, they have failed to think about the reason why these rules were created in the first place. These are not solutions to problems, they are merely convenient routes of being lazy and getting what they want. Not at all constructive.
And if I'm not totally illiterate, I think it looks like you're trying to slander their character with your claims of "cowardice" even though you considered being anonymous yourself and therefore cowardly by your own definition.
Yes, you are right. By my definition, had I posted anonymously, I would have a coward by my own word. But as you can see clearly, I have not, and therefore by your logic, am not a coward. But that's just technicalities. I think my reputation stands for itself. Such cannot be said for the original posters, because, well, I don't know who they are, since they posted anonymously. And by that logic, I can't really slander their character if I don't know who they are. Furthermore, this just makes their accusations of bias of staffers even worse. Because this way, staffers can't defend themselves on the same level. Do you not find this unfair? In real life, you can bring your accusations against another in public or court and that, at least, is a just forum. Can this be said for this situation? I think not.
I'm sorry that I singled you out in particular, but of all the posts I've read in this thread, I was most offended by yours. I can't help but wonder if your tone would be different if you knew the authors of the thread personally.
You don't have to be sorry. I said what I said knowing fully what consequences there will be, and I was fully prepared to answer to them. Like I said above, I appreciate your frankness in expressing your opinion. Had the original posters your attitude, I would've taken them seriously and responded justly to their issues. Furthermore, in response to your last point, had I known the posters personally in addition to the fact that they posted anonymously, I would treat them the same as I do now. I cannot condone their actions simply because I know them or that they are my friends. I would berate my friends if they brought upon such behavior. That is my principle.
--------------------
And a few additional comments about others' comments:
Codes rule
Genevieve has brought up a great point. I remember when the codes rule was first created, there were suggestions made by Kel about putting just "Series" on the code if the name was too long and other similar comments. So I hope people realize there was a conscious effort by staffers to not make this rule a pain in the neck. And frankly, I don't think it's that bad. Making codes is hardly back breaking, unless you have 23874383 fanlistings, But that's your conscious decision to own so many fanlistings. You should've taken into consideration the amount of work that goes into maintaining a fanlisting when you first applied.
Which brings me to the broader issue of fanlisting ownership. Fanlistings are serious business. It takes a lot of responsibility to maintain one. It might sound ridiculous that something on the internet that's for fun should be taken so seriously... but it is! Why else would discussions arise such as this? Thus, fanlisting owners should take their fanlistings seriously. And if you did, you wouldn't think the codes rule that big of a problem, because it really isn't. There are plenty of ways that have been suggested in this very thread about how to deal with the new rule. Learn to adapt.
Democracy
Let's stop kidding ourselves. TAFL isn't really a democracy. We don't really vote on anything and we don't elect individuals to represent our voice. Why is there a perception that TAFL is such? I have no idea. And I don't see what's so good about a democracy for an online network anyway. It just slows things down. And frankly, democracies don't really work that well. But let's not get into a political discussion. The point is, TAFL isn't a democracy, but hey, the system works. Let's not mess with it. The staffers aren't out for our blood. And I'm happy with that. Most people are too.
--------------------
Aaaand, one last point. I would like to echo Lexa's point. I would like to see the original posters come back and comment on our comments. Is the reason why you're hesitating to speak out because you've had too much opposition? I hope not. Because that would just prove my point further. But alas, don't let my bullying stop you from voicing your opinions. I would like to hear what you have up your sleeve.
-
I'm not going to make a big long post about what I think about everything on this thread, because frankly it's been done in just about every other post.
I'd like to say something about the original posters. The fact is, despite all of this opposition, they haven't come back and they probably won't, at this rate. I think they just wanted to get their views heard. And they have been. Just about every staffer (and a good portion of the members) has posted and said what he or she thinks. And by now, the dead horse has been thoroughly maimed, beaten, and generally made more dead.
Everything brought up in the original post has been discussed six ways to Sunday. I think the staffers' posts have shown the staff's general opinion on the topics brought up, and it's obvious that nothing is about to change any time soon. Unless someone else has a brilliant insight, just let this topic die already. We got the point: change something. Nothing is about to be changed. (Rules-wise, I mean. I rather like how the board itself has become more friendly.)
And, as a side note? Arashi, you have gone from expressing your opinions to being downright rude. It's not so much cowardice of posting that as being downright scared of the response. For the love of Toledo, if I'd written this, I'd have posted it anonymously if THIS is the kind of response I'd get. Saying what one thinks about something is one thing. Getting angry posts from more than half of the replies is another entirely. And plenty of members who frequent these boards haven't posted out of fear. Fear happens to be a universal human emotion, and I'm not surprised in the least that it's at work here. Reply to me if you want, I've honestly stopped caring.
I'm done with this topic. The horse is dead. Just bury it in peace.
-
First of all, Arashi I love you, but I don't think it's right on what you say with cowardice. I agree with Larissa that it is a human emotion. Also, when you are expressing your feelings it's easier for you to remain hidden behind something to say something, because there were ALWAYS be the consequences, but as much as I know about the boards, it's not really anonymous anyways since boards log in IP addresses and unless Anonymous posted under a different computer than you normally use, we already know who he/she is anyways, and maybe he/she knows this as well. When I posted that topic about the codes rule, it really took a lot out of me to post it, because I was sort of scared my opinions of it might reflect later applications and make people think I was lazy to make new codes and just darn argumentative, so I wrote it, erased it, wrote it, erased it, until I finally posted it.
I like Haley's comment "I understand that some people can push out a fanlisting faster than a mom can have a C-section" which was hilarious but true. I think a limit of 6 is quite adequete. And, from experience, I've had more than 6 pending at a time, because of late updates etc., so I think that there are some leniencies as well. Also, I don't think that TAFL is as elitist as TFL is personally. At least we have different types of owners in each genre, not like all the Batman fanlistings are owned by one person and no one else gets approved.
As for me, I could never be a staffer because 1) it takes too much work for me, and I admire these people who do it 2) reinstatement of number 1, and also because I have enough experience with running networks that I know all these little things to it. When I run my boards, I listen to suggestions, but I am by no way obligated to take on any suggestions, and I do feel sorry for the staffers who get things said behind their backs. I know on my boards, I get things said like 'Shaza is so mean, because she doesn't let us post 400x400 avatars" and so forth. And it really hurts my feelings, and I feel so bad that I just feel like just closing it down. I mean TAFL was a great idea, but its just a listing place, a very good and popular listing place which we all want to be listed on of course ^_^, but a listing place none the less. You have to follow their rules to get listed. So ya, I like how everyone said everything here, and I myself feel a bit elitist attitude here on the boards, but its only because there is a natural difference between staffers and members, that is why they are different. You give hours to trouble check etc, to get that status, so if you want to give, you get. (I don't give = I don't get :D).
But ya, I like everyone's comments and I don't side with anything. But, if I might say something, I think maybe more than 1/2 of the people having problems with these rules have the problem with the codes rule, which btw, still makes no sense to me on obligation (maybe its cause most people use FLINX and other things to categorize their listings anyways). I only wish you could re-think it. Also someone mentioned that it was an old rule, and we care about it now? Its because I, for one, didn't totally understand the implications of it in the way it was worded the first time it was written. It is a rule that makes no sense to me simply by logistics of obligating something that isn't an obligation already lol. In my case, I try to abide by it, but I still don't agree. I also wish that my topic wasn't locked before I could reply, since I really felt hurt by the last line from the staffer in that post, it seemed like a blackmail to me. Please give us a chance to speak replies before locking topics. I thought I might as well just say that, since I wasn't able to in that post. And from it, I really didn't feel the urge to say any of my other opinions either, which is why I understand this post anonymously. But, who am I to say.
-
[quote name='Marie' post='218213' date='Nov 1 2007, 06:11 PM'][quote name='Mistress Puff' post='218211' date='Nov 1 2007, 05:49 PM']Probably because a lot of people will try to "fluff" up the subject and make it sound more meaningful than it really is. xD[/quote]
But this is the exact reason that we don't allow 4+ relationships. The argument that everyone is presenting thus far is for the applicant to provide "proof" that the relationship is meaningful - but those are both variable terms. What is proof for a relationship to one person might be proof against the same relationship for someone else; something meaningful to one is not meaningful to others. Providing "proof" in this kind of situation basically just means "interpretations", and while several may be based on actual fact, they are still a form of opinion. This would put the staff in the position of approving or discrediting someone's opinions/beliefs and that's not fair to any involved. [/quote]
That's true too.. I dunno, maybe it's just the initial fact there is a 3 character cap per relationship. It honestly baffles me, especially when you compare it to TFL's 10 character cap. Now I'm not saying we should open it up to 10, but at least consider 4.. It's as if we don't want TAFL to grow a little bit more. It confuses me a bit too why some might think we would see a surge of spammy relationships.
Even if the original post was anonymous, at least someone voiced their opinions, so kudos to them. I don't think things are ever going to change here as far as rules go. But at least you can tell that somethings around the board have changed a bit. Anyway.. I completely agree with Larissa's point -- I think this is a dead little horsey.. Things are just gonna get repeated more and more..
-
Since the phrase "dead horse" has been mentioned at least two or three times this page, I think it's about time to bury the poor thing, horn, wings and all. (Or.... not. Eheh.)
I've stayed away from this, being the head of the network (hammer-wielder, dictator, loving mother, take your pick), so as to not seem that I'm shutting down dialog, cutting off conversation or censoring input. Since we have (as others have mentioned) all weighed in, and it is apparent that the original posters aren't keen to return and back themselves up (also since some of us seem to be getting on eachother's nerves, heh), I feel it's time to conclude this very rewarding thread.
I have decided not to weigh in on the many things that have been revisited and separately concluded many times over. TAFL's non-democracy status, other things... you guys have that pretty well figured out, and the conclusions you have reached are right and accurate. Not much else to say, there.
I would like to thank everyone who posted, staffer and otherwise. (Aside from the original post.) I found your replies, ALL of your replies, to be extremely thought-out and mature, and reading it for the first time (two or so pages into it, I came in late), I was absolutely glowing with pride in my network, my staffers, and YOU, yes YOU the viewers and participants. You guys are absolutely the best ever, and I really, sincerely, TRULY MEAN THAT.
Thank you for such a great discussion of our policies, and I hope that this thread has helped to clarify a few things for a lot of people, and shown that we are not the oppressive regime the Anons seem to think we are.
Thank you all, once again. Closing this now.