Recent events and policies we'd like to discuss

[freedom of speech]

Hello, our name is Anonymous and we have some issues we'd like to have addressed. But we'd like these issues addressed by everyone, not just any one member of the senior staff. Lately, we have been unhappy with how strictly, to the point of being unfairly, moderated this board has become. We have many complaints so we will post them one by one and wish that the staff as well as the members get a chance to address them.

The General Questions and Discussion forum says specifically, Only post in this forum if you're willing to DISCUSS things with other board members! If you want a direct and straight-forward answer from a Senior Staffer, post in the Questions for the Senior Staff forum! Yet, every other post in this forum is answered by a Senior Staffer and closed. What's wrong with us discussing the codes rule? If we're posting in there, clearly we don't want a straight-forward reply from the Senior Staff. There are many topics posted in there that we'd love to discuss, however we can't because they have been closed and us re-posting a thread makes us seem like the bad guys.


Our second complaint is the posting of non-TAFL related fanlistings. We understand the reasons behind not having an "Other Network Pimping" board, and why threads created solely for pimping other network's fanlistings aren't allowed. But in all honesty, how is posting one or two TFL fanlistings (most of which are game-related - a common interest between AFLers and TFLers) in a list of 20 up for adoption harmful to the community? It is a waste of time and resources when these posts are edited and subjects are removed - Especially when some categories are going months without updating and forms are left unanswered. It makes us feel like the Senior Staff has nothing better to do than track us down and make sure no one knows about our one TFL fanlisting that needs a home.

Thirdly, the Off-Topic Chit-Chat board. Isn't that supposed to be a place for us to talk about anything? Yet it seems like any and every thread made for the specific purpose of chatting about anything with our fellow board members is closed. When we lost the "What are you doing?" thread over a debate about one person's comments on a website, we were slightly peeved to say the least. Everyone loved that thread, and it had been the start of many friendships between fellow board members. Then the "Your Mood" thread was opened, and we received another chance to bond with our fellow peers. However, that thread was closed because a few people posted about adoptions/rejections (yet, at the time it was closed, it looked like that wasn't being discussed at all). A simple warning could have sufficed. The message boards are never more dead than after one of our important threads are closed. It makes us sad to see that, because we adore TAFL and yet it feels as if we’re forced to join the TFL community just to talk with other TAFLers!


Actually, TFL is our next point. We understand that we adopted TFL's rules when we became a separate network, but then changed some to suit us better. However, some of them are bordering on ridiculous:

1. The "6 upcoming" rule is way too low. Given all the categories, fanlistings, and the fact that almost every major category updates at the same time, it pretty much ensures that people will miss fanlistings they want simply because of that rule. Not only this, but half of the categories update late, so we have unprocessed finished forms counting against us for weeks!

2. As if that wasn't enough, now the 3 pending rule is in our way. There are many major categories who have large amounts of troubles removals every other month, so why should we be punished and not be given the chance to run the 4 fanlistings that were removed? This again being coupled with the occasionally-sparse updates makes it very unfair for us.

3. Our third argument with the rules is the codes rule. Why should people be troubled for completely optional gifts to their members? If people think that codes are ambiguous then they have a choice not to use them. Being troubled for putting a picture of a manga-ka and writing "fan" just because other people are ignorant is a terrible excuse.

4. Finally, the < 4 per relationship rule. There are plenty of relationships that have 4 or more completely legitimate characters that we should be allowed to apply for. Some examples include: Ichigo, Ishida, Chad, Orihime & Rukia (Bleach); Ash, May, Max & Brock (Pokemon); Naruto, Shikamaru, Kiba, Chouji & Neji (from the Sasuke retrieval arc of Naruto), as well as Sakon, Ukon, Tayuya, Jiroubo & Kidoumaru from the same arc; Revy, Rock, Dutch & Benny (Black Lagoon); Gene, Jim, Melfina & Aisha Clan Clan (Outlaw Star); the Host Club (Haruhi, Tamaki, Kyouya, Mori, Honey, Hikaru & Kaoru); Ichigo, Isshin, Karin & Yuzu (Bleach); Tenchi, Ryoko, Ayeka & Sasami (Tenchi Muyo!), and finally Roy, Hawkeye, Havoc, Falman, Fuery & Breda (Fullmetal Alchemist). Those are just a few examples of legitimate 4+ character relationships that should be approvable.


This next argument has been derived from the above - how, when we want to discuss rules, we are basically just told "No" without a good reason. Why shouldn't we, the people of TAFL, not have a say in how this network is run? We're sure that many people would agree with us on each of those points made above, but yet we don't get any say on it. Even our opinions about things that should/shouldn't be approvable are dismissed, and often solely on the category staffer's opinions on series they aren't even familiar with. Threads about the codes rule and 4 person + relationship rule are closed without discussion, and although the upcoming/pending rules have been said to be "discussed", we were never updated on the progress. We have a right to know that our opinions are taken seriously.


The reason why this is an anonymous post is our last argument - bias. Very few of the Staff are also active members of the boards, and the ones who are often punish/scold/warn us about every rule. This type of environment almost puts Staff up in a type of "God" role and makes us feel like if we say one thing that a Staffer could yell at us for, suddenly all of our applications will start getting rejected. This type of fear isn't normal and it is not that way on TFL. Is it too much to ask to have Staffers who will talk to everyone and not make us feel like we're the scum of the earth because we got a little angry about a rejection or ungrateful about something else? The elite feeling of the boards just makes them scary, and if we wanted to be scared, we wouldn't go here in the first place.


We know this seems like a long and unreasonable rant, but if we posted everything one by one, we'd have to keep going back to the public place where we're posting because we're afraid of getting our IPs traced and getting banned/yelled at/rejected for fanlistings and that would be troublesome to say the least. Although the "we" only refers to the people helping write this, we're sure that every other member has to agree with at least one of our points. This is why we'd like to allow other members the chance to post their opinions. The information for this account is:
username: speak_your_mind
password: anonymous

Please, please don't close this thread. Feel free to address it, but trying to ignore these concerns will only make us and the other members more upset and mostly likely more groups like us will surface. We love TAFL and we love being TAFL Message Board members, but we want to be able to speak our minds. Thank you for reading, staff and members alike, and we look forward to reading ALL of your opinions.

[Chisa]

I won't address every topic, but I'll throw in my two cents about some of the things.

I'm writing as another member of the board, not as a staff member. I'm not speaking for the staff or anything, I'm speaking as myself:

Regarding the Off Topic Chit-Chat, my personal opinion on threads such as What Are You Doing? And What is Your Mood? is that they are full of one-liners that don't really stimulate any sort of discussion/conversation anyway. I personally find it almost spammy. I'm totally up for topics such as the BL/Yaoi Love thread because they spark actual conversation, but I see those other threads as nothing more than lists.

If you feel a staff member has treated you unfairly, I really do encourage you to e-mail the staffer about it and discuss it. If you feel there was bias involved in an application, you can always ask why you were rejected rather than assume it was bias. In all honesty, I also feel I have been treated unfairly by some board members. I've also been made to feel miserable/harassed by other fanlisting owners, especially through e-mails where other people can't read what you write. It's not just one way.

My Opinion on Policies:

I realize TFL has a 20 upcoming rule while we have 6, but considering TFL has nearly 40, 000 fanlistings and TAFL has 6,500, in my opinion, the numbers are somewhat proportional. I actually think TFL's 20 upcoming rule is ridiculous and the number should be lower. When applying for future fanlistings, you could always tell the staffer you have sent in a Finished Form for some of the upcomings. I've had people tell me that and I had no problem with it. I suppose it wouldn't be that big of a deal if the number was increased, but I am not the creator of this rule so I don't know.

The codes rule is reasonable, in my personal opinion. Why would you provide an ambiguous code as a gift anyway? I think it is a trouble worthy offence because there are fanlistings that were created because the owner actually really wants to own a different fanlisting, and thus, tries to get people to join this one by "disguising" their code buttons. Saying the other person is ignorant is not fair, in my opinion, when the code is truly difficult to interpret. For example, in the series category, before the codes rule, nearly half the fanlistings' codes were pictures of characters with the word 'fan' on it. I don't think I would have been ignorant if I assumed it was a fanlisting for a character, if I saw someone using that button to link to the site.

The relationship rule was put in to prevent people from applying for fanlistings with ridiculous amounts of relationships, say, someone who does not own a certain series fanlisting or something, and instead applies for a relationship fanlisting with nearly all the characters in it. This is like 'double-dipping'. We do realize that there are relationships with four characters that are legitimate, but it is difficult for us to allow the 'legitimate' ones and reject the ones that are not because we do not know every series, and because what is not legitimate in our eyes, may be legitimate in yours.


(I don't have the time to address every point right now, as I have to leave now for an appointment, but here are my opinions on some of the problems you have. Again, this is all from the opinion of me, myself, and I am not speaking for the staff or as a staff member (although you probably find my opinions overlap their's anyway).

[Rosemary]

I've deleted the 'anonymous' account used since we already have an anonymous board account at TAFL specifically for people to use if they do not want their identities known.  The info for that account is below (it can also be found in the guidelines for the Questions for Senior Staff forum post).  Use that account or your own if you have something to say.

Username: Anonymous
Password: anonymous

[Shalott]

In regards to the Off-Topic Chit Chat threads: I agree that there needs to be a place for open discussion to happen, but I do not feel like the Your Mood or What Are You Doing threads are the way to go. In fact, in regards to the Your Mood thread, I personally feel that recent posts in the thread were made for the sole purpose of allowing several board members to badger one other member who had done something they disliked. I do not know the details of the situation, but there is absolutely no reason for anyone at TAFL to feel like they are being harassed or bullied in any thread, whether on or off topic. This very reason is the reason many of these discussion threads are closed so quickly. When the thread is started with a very aggressive, accusing tone, it becomes easy to spiral out of control into a situation where people's feelings are hurt!

I love threads like Mitzrael's yaoi/BL thread which encourage healthy discussion and the opportunity to learn more about one another all the while keeping a neutral tone. I agree with Chisa - if you want a thread to discuss your school finals, or debate what your favorite movie is, why not start one? You don't need a Your Mood, or What Are You Doing thread to have alively discussion. ^_^

In regards to the codes rule: I absolutely do not understand why people are still upset about this. It takes less than a minute to either remove codes that do not comply, or alter them so that they do. There is no fanlisting at this network now that should have codes that do not comply - when the rule became strictly enforced, all offending fanlistings were given a month's time to comply, before a troubles notice was ever sent. All new fanlistings know about the rule before they are even built - or should. If you are not reading the Network rules page before you apply/build your fanlisting, then I think you will have bigger problems than some ambiguous codes. I myself received a notice about some offending codes on one of my series fanlistings. I removed the codes and the problem was no more.

A quick note in regards to the Relationships rule: Some of the "relationshps" you listed are, or could be, classified as character groups. The Ouran Koukou Host Club is already listed under Characters, so having a relationship fanlisting for that group wouldn't be allowed in any situation. The Black Lagoon relationship you mentioned, Rock, Revy, Benny and Dutch, may qualify as a group, as well - the Lagoon Company. That would have to be discussed with the Characters staffers.

And in regards to the "elite" feel of the boards: I have never noticed a difference between the TFL and TAFL boards in regards to the Staff activity on the boards themselves. Not when I was a member, not after I became a staffer. There is a certain amount of "parenting", for lack of a better word, that is done on all message boards, because otherwise they would not be a pleasant place to visit. This "parenting" can be done by members of the community, as well as moderators, and usually is. (Come you guys - I have definitely seen some of the board members here step up to defend others, or let someone know when they are out of line.) The parenting happens on an equal level both here, and TFL - I feel very strongly that th reason it is noticed more at the TAFL board is because it is a much smaller community. With so many fewer posts each day, more people notice when a staffer has to step into a situation and give a reminder. And that is all it is - reminders. No one is trying to play god, no one is going to hold a grudge against another person for calmly and maturely speaking their mind.

You say this:

Is it too much to ask to have Staffers who will talk to everyone and not make us feel like we're the scum of the earth because we got a little angry about a rejection or ungrateful about something else?

Have you ever thought about being the one to open communications? Of course if you are angry, or ungrateful the staffer(s) are not going to want to go out of their way to hold a conversation. We are people, with feelings too, and we know who you are talking about when you make those angry or ungrateful comments. As unbelievable as it may seem, we do believe all of our decisions are the best ones possible, and we do stand by them. Being flamed, even if not by name, hurts!

Speaking on a completely personal level, I am 100% more open to possibilities if they are laid before me with kindness. If you approach me pleasantly, with reasons, instead of approaching angrily, with accusations, I will always, always listen and discuss the situation. It is impossible to discuss something with a person who is demanding their way. I know, I have to deal with it every day in real life.

So, that is what I feel I have to contribute to this discussion. My comments are made as both a staffer and as an individual board member. I believe they stand either way. And for what it is worth, I love this community and the members here. I think everyone is a fantastic individual, and I am saddened to see that not everyone feels the same way.

[Puff]

I do think that some things need to be discussed between the board members and the moderators of this board... A perfect example is the
upcoming and pending rules -- We never heard back about that.

I definitely agree that the 6 upcoming and 3 pending rule is very low -- Mostly because of the amount of time updates are made. If updates were more frequent like they are on TFL, then maybe it would be "proportional", but when you're waiting 2-6 weeks for your finished form to get processed, that's not exactly fair.

I believe that there should be a way to approve legitimate 4+ character relationships.  And if it's about what is legitimate in a staffers eyes because one is unfamiliar with the series, then there should be a 'more information about the subject' section on the application. That way the applicant can prove that the relationship is legitimate...

I am glad that a lot of these things were pointed out... I look forward to hearing how this post will progress!

[Rosemary]

The majority of the points in the original post have been commented on numerous times in the past, so I won't go into detail for most of them.  There are several points I feel need to be made though.

First, despite what some of you may think, TAFL (and TFL for that matter) is not a democracy.  You are always welcome to voice your comments, questions, and concerns which we do take under consideration, but at the end of the day, if you want to have your fanlistings listed at TAFL or want to be a part of the TAFL board community you need to follow our rules and policies which are decided on and enforced by the TAFL Staff.  You do not have to agree with them all, you do not have to like them all, but you do need to follow them to keep your fanlistings listed at the network.

The General Questions and Discussions forum is a place for discussion and comments, but new threads about topics that have been thoroughly discussed previously and resolved/answered can and will be closed.

We have always had a board policy that you could only discuss and promote TAFL approved fanlistings on the forums.  It had to be more strictly enforced because people were taking advantage.  Game fanlistings are not related to anime and manga fanlistings anymore than say a fanlisting about food would be.  People who own anime and manga fanlistings having an interest in it does not make it related.  

The What are you Doing and Your Mood threads were filled with spam and hostility.  They did not foster discussion in the least bit.  We have never discouraged people from posting threads that will lead to actual discussions (in fact we often go out of our way to start them ourselves).

The code rule is not new.  It has been an unwritten rule since the network's inception.  We have been actively enforcing the rule since March.  No amount of complaining or 'discussion' will result in it being removed or changed, so people will have to learn to live with the rule or if they find themselves unable to do so, remove their fanlistings from the network.  

Danielle has already replied to the 3 people relationship rule just last month here.  We have no plans to change that rule.  Likewise, we have commented numerous times on the application limit.  We feel six is a reasonable limit given the time it takes to make fanlistings (and the fact that serial applicants already abuse that limit).  We have no plans to change it currently.

I'm answering your final point personally and am not speaking for all of the Senior Staff (though I am sure they would agree with me).  Trust me when I tell you that I never like having to correct people on the boards.  Apparently, based on the original post some of you think I get some kind of great joy or power thrill out of it, but that is very far from the truth.  Part of my job here at TAFL (as I'm sure most everyone is aware of) is to maintain and moderate the board.  That means that at times, I do have to be the 'bad guy' for want of a better term to make sure policies, common courtesy, and a pleasant environment are maintained.  I have been involved with various message boards in the years I've been on the internet and they all have rules and policies that are enforced to maintain a peaceful and enjoyable posting environment for the people that use it.  If you find our board policies too strict or restrictive you are welcome to go elsewhere to discuss things with people.  I'm fairly confident that the vast majority of people that visit our boards enjoy themselves and have no problems following our simple and basic rules and policies.

Speaking purely personally now and not as a staffer I find it rather offensive and insulting that you imply our staffers will penalize you for any opinions or comments you may make about TAFL.  All of our staffers take their jobs very seriously and go out of their way to be as impartial and fair as possible.  It's sad to me that a double standard seems to exist where some fanlisting owners think they can say whatever they want to or about staff members and we are supposed to just take it, ignore it, or act like it doesn't hurt our feeling or bother us, but whenever a staffer makes any kind of comment, corrects anyone, or points out something that people should know (such as a rule or policy) it's instantly a sign that we're overbearing, mean, think we're better than everyone else, or showing favoritism.  I personally find that really tedious and tiresome.  I also find it rather silly you all felt a need to make a collective anonymous post.  I'm sure most people can wager a pretty good guess as to who was involved in the thread's creation, so I don't really see the point.

[Chisa]

[quote name='Rosemary' post='217482' date='Oct 27 2007, 04:02 PM']It's sad to me that a double standard seems to exist where some fanlisting owners think they can say whatever they want to or about staff members and we are supposed to just take it, ignore it, or act like it doesn't hurt our feeling or bother us, but whenever a staffer makes any kind of comment, corrects anyone, or points out something that people should know (such as a rule or policy) it's instantly a sign that we're overbearing, mean, think we're better than everyone else, or showing favoritism.[/quote]

I totally agree with Rose here; I mean, we're not dumb, we know some of the things people have said about us behind our backs, and we wonder if anyone actually really expects us to not feel hurt by it. However, if it was the other way around, we're seen as tyrants.

[Carolyn]

Hmm, I'm sort of on both sides of the fence with this one. There are aspects of the post that I agree with- for instance, the 3 pending per category rule is sort of harsh considering the huge troubles removals that happen (especially with both Characters categories as well as Relationships). And I agree with some parts of their objections to code rule, especially when it comes to manga-ka- but, as Chisa pointed out, there are many Series fanlistings that should be on troubles for their codes. I also think that we do need some sort of off-topic chat thread because, as they pointed out, the forum has been rather dead lately.

On the other side, I agree with Rosemary about respect. It does go both ways and staff only seem to get respect when they've done something that makes people happy. I always try to put myself in the staff's shoes when I get rejected for something, and even though it may hurt, I know that at the end of the day, the staff have put lots of time and effort into their decisions. And, as Rosemary stated, it's not a democracy here, so we have to respect their decisions.

Anyways, I do hope more people will post here either way, especially some members. I've read every post top-to-bottom so far, as I'm sure many others have, so now is a great time to voice your opinions. :3

[Yamila]

I will try to give a coherent opinion...

well, first of all, that 4+ relationships... yes, in some cases it should be approvable... but I imagine it would be very, very difficult to investigate about EVERY application - staffers don't know about all series out there, and if they didn't and approved without doing that would lead to "cushion" fanlistings (was that the word...? when you apply for something just for the sake of owning sth related to your fave series or pairing). I don't have any good ideas right now, but I'm sure it's a very complicated issue. ^_^

Then the codes... I've also been troubled because of that, and yet I totally agree on the rule. I just hate when I'm going around joined FLs lists and I can't recognize which FLs the codes are linking. o_ó

And finally... I feel a bit guilty, as I was the one who restarted the Your Mood thread some months ago I didn't think about those things you point out... you're right, I'm sorry. Even though I was glad to see how everyone was doing, I admit it was a spammy one T_T and I had no idea why the "What are you doing?" was closed (I wasn't around here at that time, can't remember why), I'm happy to see the reasons

So, I think the solution would be to create more specific threads at Off-Topic Chit-Chat section (but don't spam this place over, please ) What about that?

[Mitzrael]

As another board member and fellow listings owner I'll also add my 2-cents and points of view since it's the main idea behind this thread.

About the "6 upcoming" rule, this surely is up to every single one of us way to see it.
I'm speaking for myself when I say, this limit is just about enough to run my own listings in a decent way.
I'm also conscious that we do not have the same needs nor free-time to dedicate those moments to this lovely hobby called "fanlistings" however, what if tomorrow we were to be granted a "20 pendings" limit? if you're getting a hold on yourself and restraining to focus on your most precious subjects wouldn't it be a real madness to suddenly apply for that huge number?
Then again, there's all kind of fandoms, and while some are tiny or just recent/new some others are really huge and do not decrease as time pass by, so 6 pendings might be restraining for those but, this shouldn't mean we've got to apply for everything nor get all we want out of a selfish desire.
Plus, not only would it multiplicate exponentially the amount of applications/approvals thus the amount of work for each staffer (maybe some more than others) but it will also affect updates of all sorts.

This fact brings me down to the update frequency touched on the thread. While, it could be true from an "urgent" point of view to get upcoming/pending applications cleared off everybody's log, each staffer, as us regular members, do have their own life to organize so yeah, one could think "if they can't get their job done, just quit" but taking care of a category must be quite time-consuming and some updates can't be done just because we all want to get approved, there's a time-limit (I think) before an update can be realized.

Anyway, it's not up to me to speak on staffers schedules nor free-time so that's all i'll say about that.
Now, back on the code rule and as it has already pointed several times, the rule has been up for several months now, and whilst I understand having 1, 500+ codes cumulated in a collective (just to make a point based on an non-real case) must be tiring to check and remove/edit I do think it shouldn't be that much a pain to do so. So why insist in not "evolving" like most part of the network and get up-to-date witht he rules instead of just stepping back, again and again? isnt' it a big loss of time bringing up the same topic while we/you could be editing or made the required changes to make listings comply with the not so mew rules? I'd be myself gladly up to help someone with "problems" editing codes but seriously talking around something that had been discussed and solved repeatdly is far from being a sign of progress. It's like we're talking about cleaning our own room instead of actually doing it? It's not funny i know but that's only how I see it, then again i might be mistaken so do not take it as something wrong nor anything since i'm just voicing my concern just as you did.

Being troubled for putting a picture of a manga-ka and writing "fan" just because other people are ignorant is a terrible excuse.

There, I must say that even if I'm not a staffer and obviously the last word is not on my lips, the idea behind this statement is quite an offense. AFL just like TFL or any other network alike, is not made of god-like people who knows everything about everything. For example I might know who Naduki Koujima is but I doubt everybody here knows, then if I see a code for Eiichiro Oda and i have no clue about who's that... well a mere "fan" code even with his face will not help me know who he is and I might just as well step beside a genius and not been aware of it. Anyway the point is, it doesn't hurt to put a nice "Eiichiro"  or "Oda" on the code instead of a simple "fan" which clearly is unmistakable for some of us but not for just everybody across the world. Now. I do think and this come as a suggestion that maybe a thread like : "is that code right?" or something in the line could be open, just to make sure your codes are complying the rule code. Then, if a TC-er report a listing and the staffer judges it "guilty" there's a .... how could I word that? backup? yes, for codes verification. It's just an idea, obviously if done it wouldn't mean staffer should be "harrassed" to check on everybody's codes but crucial doubts could be solved that way.

I think I'm done here. I hope my personal insight won't be taken the wrong way, as the original posters i'm only expressing my own points of view. I also hope some suggestions could be taken out of this and applied in the future, who knows?

ps: forgive typos, grammatical mistakes and whatelse my nap do affect my brain after all *rotf*

[Riley]

I know there have been quite a few responses to this already, but I feel the urge to comment to this as well. I agree that everyone should voice their opinions on the subject.

Honestly, I have to say that I agree with Chisa and Rosemary on this one, as well as the rules already set by the network. First of all, as has already been said, TFL has a lot more categories and subjects than TAFL, so it is only natural that they have a larger number than here. I also think that having the ability to apply for 20 is insane, who can actually have that many on upcoming? That is more fanlistings than I actually own. I know fanlistings are fun and I enjoy them a lot, but why would you have to apply for that many at a time if you were only applying for subjects you really like? I just do not think that anyone can have that many on upcoming and take care of them well enough in the four week period given to complete them. I know I can barely handle 2-3 on upcoming, and I try to only have one application at a time. I know that sometimes it is hard because a bunch of subjects really dear to you seem to get removed all at once and some categories may be slow on the updates because the staffers have lives other than TAFL, but still. Having the limit increased will only inspire more collectors rather than fans. Plus, if you were allowed to have more, one or two people could easily overtake a new series before others even hear about it or whatever else. It seems to be that increasing the limit would only make things more unfair.

Secondly, the whole code thing is just getting ridiculous. I know that some subjects have really long names, but is it REALLY that big of a deal not to be able to have "fan" on a code for a series or song? I know that when one of my fanlistings was approved at TFL, but not over here, and the person who owned the TAFL one used game images, it annoyed me. I knew people would mistake it for the game fanlisting when it really wasn't. It would be the same thing if someone thought the subject was something you owned when it really wasn't. Like it has been said, it really does not take that long to get rid of codes that do not qualify under the rules. It has been in place for awhile now, and I just do not see the point in complaining about something that really should not matter if you are deticated enough to the subject.

As for the relationships, I know there are a few relationships that seem perfect for more than three people...such as the InuYasha gumi or even the Pokemon one...but expanding the relationship more than three people seems to defeat the point. In my opinion, the more people you add, the less you are focusing on one relationship and more you are focusing on a group of entangled relationships. I think the individual relationship fanlistings for the two or even three people inside the large group of people cover what one fanlisting for a group of four+ would anyway. But that is just my opinion.

The Off Topic Chitchat thing... I know it seems unfair it closed over an arguement, but feelings were hurt and people were being attacked. As said by others, just start a new thread if you have something in particular to talk about that would involve others in discussion instead of a place where people can say random things.

Lastly, the atmosphere amongst the staffers isn't any different here than at TFL. I think it is unfair to criticize the staffers here just because they are doing their job by upholding the rules established, especially when TFL does the same thing. They aren't doing anything because they don't "like" a person, they are doing it because it is what they do as part of the job of being a staffer. I am not a staffer myself, but I am sure it must be a tough job, especially with the application process.

Overall, I can understand that some people may be upset, but those are the rules set down. People agree with them and people who are not staffers can see why they are logical and allow them to be in place. Otherwise, people wouldn't apply for fanlistings, right? It seems fanlistings have turned into really serious things in the past few years, when they are supposed to be something for fun. Arguing over small details like this ruins the spirit of owning fanlistings.

Also, I don't mean to offend anyone by anything I have said, I am simply stating my opinion like everyone else here.

[Lexa]

I'm sorry, but THIS is a little ridiculous.  I'm going to be one of those "mean" staffers here and tell you that I'm disappointed that you couldn't make a stand for yourself and use your real name, because your fear is unfounded and I probably would have respected you all the more.  But it's you're right to remain anonymous, and I acknowledge that completely.

Like Rose said, TAFL isn't a democracy.  Posts about rules are closed down because they've been discussed TO DEATH.  You need to have some kind of standard and authority when it comes to fanlisting networks, trust me.  There's no way to make everyone completely happy.  I'm not really sure what you're getting at here, either.  Because are you thinking that we need to start opening up discussion polls for every little rule change?  I can tell you from personal experience that we do discuss the rules, and we always try to find compromise that's fair.  It needs to be this way, otherwise the entire network would be chaotic.  I'm very sorry if this comes across as belittling, but most people have no idea what goes into running a network like this and how much time and effort it takes to keep it going.  

One thing that really irks me about this post is that it kinda of rings of self-entitlement to me.  From my personal point of view, the limit on the number of fanlistings you can have pending/upcoming is perfectly reasonable because it cuts back on the amount of collectors and it gives others more opportunities to apply for and run the different fanlistings.  And I'm sure part of the rule has to do with quality, as well. How good of a job can you do on 10, 20, 30 upcoming fanlistings each month?  

The reason why this is an anonymous post is our last argument - bias. Very few of the Staff are also active members of the boards, and the ones who are often punish/scold/warn us about every rule. This type of environment almost puts Staff up in a type of "God" role and makes us feel like if we say one thing that a Staffer could yell at us for, suddenly all of our applications will start getting rejected. This type of fear isn't normal and it is not that way on TFL. Is it too much to ask to have Staffers who will talk to everyone and not make us feel like we're the scum of the earth because we got a little angry about a rejection or ungrateful about something else? The elite feeling of the boards just makes them scary, and if we wanted to be scared, we wouldn't go here in the first place.

We know this seems like a long and unreasonable rant, but if we posted everything one by one, we'd have to keep going back to the public place where we're posting because we're afraid of getting our IPs traced and getting banned/yelled at/rejected for fanlistings and that would be troublesome to say the least. Although the "we" only refers to the people helping write this, we're sure that every other member has to agree with at least one of our points. This is why we'd like to allow other members the chance to post their opinions. The information for this account is:
username: speak_your_mind
password: anonymous

1)  Staffers step in when they feel  like other members of the community are being harassed about getting an approval over someone else.  It always hurts to have to reject someone, and that never changes, but we don't tend to take those types of posts as being personal attacks.  But when you make snide little comments about others getting the approval and you being "the bigger fan," YOU are undermining the community we have.  You can attack us all you want, but you have to remember that first and foremost this is a board to talk about ANIME FANLISTINGS.  There are countless other communities that you can join to talk about things that are off-topic.  

2) This is hugely offensive to me, not only as a staffer, but also as a human being.  I would never "punish" someone like that for speaking their minds, and I can tell you that NO ONE on staff would.  If a fanlisting is given to a different owner, it's not because of my personal "vendettas," but because the owner has 1) less fanlistings related to that subject 2) they can code HTML 3) they've demonstrated that they run fanlistings well and have stayed off Troubles and 4) because they have a better application.  You completely contradict yourself on this point because you say that we don't update enough and that most of us aren't regulars on the board, and yet we have all the time in the world to trace your IPs and compile a list of people titled "PEOPLE WE SHALL NEVER DARE TO APPROVE AGAIN"?    Has this EVER happened to anyone?  Do you have any proof that any staffer has ever done this?  

There is a double standard when it comes to Staffers.  We don't ever win.  I could argue with you until I'm blue in the face and it wouldn't make a difference, would it?  I hope if nothing else this thread will at least get the point across that Staffers are human beings and that we have feelings, too.  We don't run around with sporks trying to make sure everyone is a miserable as they can be.  A pretty good portion of the staff is in college or graduate school, and so we try to spend as much time as we can on the boards, but the board and fanlistings can never be our first obligation or concern in our lives.  And I certainly hope they're not the primary concern in yours, either.

[Kylara]

...I just exited out of the tab I typed my super long response in, because I'm just awesome like that ; ;

Anywho!  This thread brings up a lot of good points.  And now I get to type/retype everything multiple times so I make sure to not offend anyone.

Limit on Pending/Upcoming fanlistings
This limit isn't perfect.  There are some people who could be approved for 10+ fanlistings, get them all finished on time, and take perfect care of every fanlisting they ever make.  However, there are also people who are approved for 6 and then fail to finish any on time and let them all be removed 2-3 months after being approved, and rarely take care of their current fanlistings.  In the first case, the limit would be too low.  In the second (and yes, I've seen that happen, more than once), the limit is far too high.  Six is a compromise, a middle ground.  I'm sorry for those of you who fit into the first category, but for the majority of this network, the rule works very well.  While I see and understand your point, it's not practical to change the rule for the few who would benefit.

As an applications staffer, I think that not enough people let me know when they've completed fanlistings.  I get maybe 2-3 applications a year that say "I've finished these fanlistings" and provided URLS to the completed fanlistings, in case the finished forms aren't processed before I get to the application.  If you've completed the fanlistings and let us know, we won't count them towards your limit of 6.

Relationships limit
To be honest, I don't really see why this is a problem.  It's been brought up before--why didn't anyone else throw in their comments then?  It just feels a smidge late to be bringing this up, in my opinion.  Like Shalott said, many of the legit relationships with more than 3 characters can be approved into the Characters category.  Those that don't, you may create a fanlisting for that's not approved by TAFL.  When I have to tell someone we cannot approve their request to create a fanlisting for 3+ characters, I try to always suggest that--and most of them are quite happy to hear they can create the fanlisting outside of TAFL.

Staff Elitism
Do you guys really have a problem with us?  ^_^ If a group of people are making someone else feel like crap, do you really think we have no right to politely tell that group to stop?  If people are talking about the same thing in multiple topics, is it wrong to close one and let them chat about it in the other?  We don't care to do it, to be honest.  Especially in the first case!  I, for one, would much rather have no one make anyone else feel like crap and have the staff not have to comment on it.

...and I think that's what I had to say, for the most part

[Chisa]

Back again (just can't stay away?) I just want to elaborate on some more things ..

First off, it is most certainly understandable for one to become upset with a rejection, but what I personally find irritating is when people let off their steam in such a way that it may potentially hurt the person who DID get approved. Remember, we can only approve one person, and no, staffers do not gather together and conspire against people and decide 'we won't approve so-and-so any more fanlistings'. As an applications staffer myself, I must say that I really feel terrible rejecting people for fanlistings. It's definitely not fun, and I do not receive any thrills from doing it. Remember, the person who did get approved wanted the fanlisting just as much as you did.

On updating: If my memory serves me correctly, staff members are required to update their category at least once a month. Some staffers run more than one category as well, and trust me, they take up a lot of time. The last troubles update I did took me about three hours to complete, not counting the time I spent TC-ing a portion of the category myself. Applications could take even days because we truly do analyze every applicant and try to select the best one. Not only that, but considerable time is put in to research the subject to make sure that the subject exists, that the series isn't totally brand new, to find the proper Japanese names of the subject, etc. because not everyone provides links to sites with the information. Also, some categories are very small and do not need to be updated frequently and I'm sure the larger categories are already updated pretty frequently. Because of all these points, I feel asking us to "hurry up" is almost kind of rude. Like Lexa said, a great portion of the staff is made up of college/graduate students/people with jobs and TAFL cannot be our first priority.

Relationships: I know Mistress Puff suggested that maybe there be a box in the application form for people to 'prove' the relationship of more than four people is legitimate but the problem with this is that people will skew their arguments to make it sound more legitimate than it really is, because they want it. And it is also unfair to the masses: this would be the kind of thing that grants the staff "god" status, because how fair would it be if we approved Person A for one relationship with 4 characters, but reject someone else for another relationship with 4 characters because we believed we don't find it legitimate?

Last thing I want to say is codes. The process is like this: the Trouble Checker checks through the fanlisting and submits the list to the Troubles Staffer, who reviews the list and then decides which troubles are legitimate and which are not. Therefore, for a fanlisting to be troubled for codes, it has to pass (or would it be fail?) two rounds of judgement: both the checker and the staffer both agree it breaks the codes rule. This means it is not just ONE person who agrees the fanlisting should be on troubles, it's TWO. And besides, it's really not that big of a deal, is it? It's a very simple problem to resolve, the easiest way I can think of is to simply remove the code, which is about as easy as changing the update date on your fanlisting. Even various staff members have had their own fanlistings troubled for the code rule.

Lastly, from what I can tell by the posts made by other members of the board, nobody else seems too upset over staffer-board member relationships, which leads me to believe that the group who made the post is not, in fact, representing "everyone".

[Marie]

I don't have much to say, because I think anything I would've said has been much more eloquently presented by others, but there are a few things I would like to express, and since this entire thread is about "discussion", well. I'll just jump right in.

As others have said, the "Off-Topic" threads were closed because they went past the point of being just "off-topic". They were random, hurtful, and sometimes completely veered from the original intent of said thread. Why should be encourage people to be hostile towards one another? Especially when said hostility amounts into posts like these. And there were warnings (i.e. the other threads that were closed); Rosemary always states why a thread is closed. Is it that hard to go back and see why, make a mental note about the reasoning, and not do it again? It's hard to argue your point, when threads about why a separate thread was closed are made, just moments after the closing of the original thread. I mean, come on guys. Seriously?

As for the 6 upcoming and 3 pending rule - I have to whole-heartedly agree with Riley and Lexa. Addressing the 3 pending specifically, this is for your benefit as much as it is for ours. 3 pending discourages collectors and keeps things sane. It spreads the love, so to speak, in newer series and ensures that people who really care about the subject are getting a fair chance to apply. Also, after a major removal, the Applications staffer waits at least 2 weeks before processing applications; personally, I wait a month - that's ample time to finish your other upcomings and, as Kylara said, you can always inform us that you've sent said forms in, so it doesn't count against you. Another thing: you claim that we update sparsely, and yet you want us to raise the number of fanlistings you can apply for and the number you can have on upcoming? So, if I'm to understand this correctly - we don't update enough, but you should be allowed to send in even more forms, so we have more to process, which slows updates down and basically lets you keep complaining. How is that logical?

RE: the codes rule? This has been talked to death. As Rosemary said, it isn't going to change, it isn't new, and it honestly isn't asking that much. I think it's ridiculous that this is still an issue and this:

Being troubled for putting a picture of a manga-ka and writing "fan" just because other people are ignorant is a terrible excuse.

is completely uncalled for and rude. Calling someone ignorant because they don't know what a manga-ka looks like makes your whole argument about "Staffer elitism" kind of hypocritical and moot. How is it an "excuse" if someone legitimately doesn't recognize the author? And what is so wrong with asking for specificity? There is absolutely no reason why this should be such an issue.

I also have to agree with Lexa with how disappointed I am. We're volunteers and we have our own lives, yes, but we also do our best to work for you guys and the Network. Speaking frankly, I have never seen a group of people more dedicated to a community than the rest of the Staff. ALL of them spend hours everyday just to make sure that things run as smoothly for you as possible and do their best to work with you. It offends me to see these accusations tossed around, as if out of spite. We all have feelings; feelings that can be hurt, but not one of us would ever be "unprofessional" about any aspect of our jobs. It's sad to see that this group of individuals (who I agree, do not represent the whole) can't accept that.