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Offline Elysa

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My opinion probably agrees with a lot of people who've already posted, but since the topic starters wanted member replies, here's mine :3

About not posting TFL related fanlistings here, I'm totally okay with that, maybe because I don't own any, but also because this board is about anime and manga related fanlistings. If I want to see who owns a certain game/drama character/relationship, I can go to TFL to check, and if I'm interested in what fanlistings a person has, I can check their fanlistings collective, as almost everyone has one these days. Also, people are free to link to their TFL adoption posts (as far as I've seen), so it's not like you can't point out you're adopting out TFL listings.

To be honest, I think to have 6 fanlistings on upcoming is a lot and I'm sure I could never handle that myself. I've always wondered how people are able to take care of 20~30, or even more, fanlistings actually. (And by this, I don't mean to say that people who have this many are bad owners, not at all!) I think the 3 pending rule is actually quite fair. Like some other people have pointed out already, it keeps collecters from getting all the fanlistings for one series. Personally, I only apply for subjects I really like and therefore don't apply for many things I like and just hope the ones approved will take good care of them. If you like 4 or more subjects removed in an update, then prioritize what you like best and only apply for those.

I'm a bit half/half on the codes rule. I admit that I don't think people should actually be troubled for having ambiguous codes, but it's not so much trouble to remove those that only say "fan" (you can still put those on codes for characters/relationships if they include all the characters though) and keep the more specific codes. It's not even a rule that codes are a must, so basically, you could just remove all of them to get off troubles, and then make some when you have the time, I think (correct me if I'm wrong). Most of the codes I make already specify what exactly the fanlisting is for, with the exception of characters, because I myself want it to be clear.

Being troubled for putting a picture of a manga-ka and writing "fan" just because other people are ignorant is a terrible excuse. I really disagree with this, seeing as I have no idea what most manga-ka look like. I like the manga-ka for his/her work, not because of how he/she might look - isn't that the reason for most people? Why should we be called ignorant for that?

Lastly, I'm not a staffer, but I doubt any of the staffers are so close-minded that they would reject people just because they aren't on one line with eachother. Even if they don't agree with some points, I'm sure they are unbiased when it comes to approving people. Isn't it the same when regular members post an adoption thread? I've never done adoptions myself, but I know I'd want the best owners for them if I ever did. Sure, I can imagine being a little angry for being rejected, but if you post something in an angry manner, how must the one approved feel reading that? Put yourself in the shoes of the one approved - how would you feel reading such a post because of a recent rejection? Ofcourse, I'm sad too when I get rejected, but there must have been a reason why I wasn't approved and someone else was. You could always make a fanlisting, even if there's already an approved one, and there'll probably always be people who will join. For example, I've had an unapproved CCS series fanlisting in the past, which had quite a few members, but still nothing compared to the approved one, but I didn't mind that at all. If you look at it realistically, it's just some a list of people who like the same subject, and it's "special" because hey, it's approved by TAFL/TFL!

This all is just my opinion, and I don't mean to disrepect anyone with what I've said, it's just how I think about what's been mentioned.
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Offline Wendy

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Well, I've been reading this thread since yesterday and haven't commented since I never make sense but I feel like saying something that may sound a repeat of what everyone has said, but I'll say it anyway. I have been a fanlisting owner since 2004 and an active board member for a few months now.

About the updates taking too long part. I understand everyone wants things in a second, or less if they could. Sure, sometimes updates may take a while but think, its not a robot or an automatic script who update the network, its people! People with lives, work, studies, family!!! I can only imagine how difficult it must be for our staffers, board administrators, even trouble checkers to keep this place running after so long!!! Its easy to judge from the outside and throw the first stone, try putting yourself in their perspective!! Running a site is quite a challenge, not to mention a whole network thats made up by so many different people.

About the code rule, there was something I didn't like. Sure its easier to put the word fan instead of the name of the subject, but some codes don't even make any sense or relation with the subject and just get the word fan on them. I like putting the names, I mean some people may not know what the subject looks like and the name helps. You shouldn't call people who know less than you ignorant, no one was born knowing it all. Is it so difficult to remove them and follow the rule? You don't have to have a billion codes, just one thats right is ok.  When this rule first came to my attention, I removed the ones I knew were wrong and that was the end of that. If lots of people can do that, I don't think its that bad.

The whole relationships thing about more than 3 characters. At first I wondered about this, especially when I wanted to own the Kira, Athrun, Lacus and Cagalli fanlisting. But like it has been mentioned before, there are very few 4 or more character relationships that would make sense.  And I also highly doubt that they will all be as meaningful as others.  Maybe like some people mentioned before, it would be nice if there was a way to make some of these relationships legitimate so they can be open for application. The your mood thread, I admit I was sad when it was closed because I loved being to say I was sad and someone would be so kind and try and cheer me up. It would be nice to have more threads to discuss what you love or say what you feel, in a nice manner of course.

Oh and about the staffers feeling "all high and mighty" and approving who they want. I do admit that a long time ago this crossed my mind because I was soo pissed I got rejected for a fanlisting. I was so mad I asked the staffer who sent me the rejection and she was kind and explained what they take into consideration when approving and rejecting. Again, I put myself in their shoes, and now when I get rejected, though it hurts, I'm sure it wasn't easy for them to make a choice, and I am more than sure that they all feel awful when they have to reject someone. Because again, its people who make this place work, not a script.  If there we'rent any rules, this place wouldn't be as nice as it is now, just imagine all the crazyness and spamming there would be.

Well this is my opinion.
Wendy ~ Series (Full)

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Offline Rika

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First off, I think the 6 pending rule might be even too much. Yes, a lot of people might be fans of something, but truely is it fair if you have a lot of pending when someone could have only applied for that one thing? And if you got all 6 you applied for then you got way too much to do at one time.

With the whole "no fan on the code" thing. I think people should just get over that fact. The rule was made awhile back and nobody complained until now? I see how that might have been stressful for people to change all of their codes for the rule, but a lot of people on the net might think that you have a fanlisting for a character instead of a series or song or what not.

For the offtopic chit chat, a lot of peoples feelings were getting hurt, and I know mine did too in the end of what are you doing? I know it was fun to have and stuff, and it was a way of getting close to others. But a lot of people were upset about it and didn't like it. If the staff thinks that the majority of people are getting their feelings hurt then they should remove the topic because no one wants hard feelings her.

And yeah, I think people are making too big of a deal out of something so small. If you don't like how the staffers work or the boards then you don't have to come here and you don't have to talk to them? And yeah thats my feelings =]

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Offline Chisa

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[quote name='Chibi-chan' post='217569' date='Oct 28 2007, 04:29 AM']It's not even a rule that codes are a must, so basically, you could just remove all of them to get off troubles, and then make some when you have the time, I think (correct me if I'm wrong).[/quote]

That's completely true ^_^
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 04:33:03 PM by Chisa »
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Offline Daphne

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I have to say that all the opinions on this thread are completely legitimate, and it is your right to voice your opinions. I do agree with what Rosemary said about TAFL not being a democracy. It's a privilege, not a right to be listed at the website, and if you want to be, then it's your duty to comply with the rules. You are still free to run a fanlisting that isn't TAFL approved. The network is not the be all and end all of fanlistings, it's merely a place to list them.

Those are my two cents, and to be honest, I'm disappointed about all these complaints. I think this network is run as effectively and as appropriately as it could be and while we can't please everyone, I still maintain that being a part of the network is FUN, and that's what's important.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 06:08:23 PM by Daphne »
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Offline Mercedes

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Initially, I was unsure whether to post here or not, given that everything I could possibly say has already been already explained wonderfully by other fellow staffers and board members, but hey, I might as well give my two cents ^_^

Everyone is absolutely welcomed to voice his/her opinions and constructive criticism anytime they want as you're all doing here, of course that's a given! But reading the first post of this topic, I felt terribly sad, and I suddenly realized what I found most disappointing about that: seems like there are people who forget we are human beings, and not only us staffers, but other members of this wonderful community as well (because I really find it wonderful, in all honesty: I moderate and visit other places and I've never found anything as peaceful and friendly as this little cozy corner of the net).

I'm not trying to bring up victimism to this issue, just take this as a reminder: rules are there to organize, to sort things in the most objective way, to find an option which satisfies most people (not everyone, that's impossible!) and to help us out, for example, when we approve new fanlistings, because we are humans (as I said) and we can't possibly know every anime/manga out there and if a 4+ relationship fanlisting is valid or not. TFL fanlistings are not plugged here because that would be unfair: why give a special treatment to a certain category because statistically, anime/manga fans are also gamers? (and I'm both): when a decision is made in that aspect, we can't make exceptions, we need to be consistent. Topics are closed mostly when people start to forget about other people's feelings. The application limit is there to give everyone a chance. I feel horrible when I'm doing rejections because I inevitably think how that person will feel, and I had to reject close friends more than a couple of times. If you think about it, everything comes down to understand and emphatize with how others might feel, more or less.

I'm one of those staffers that can't frequent these boards as much as they like, because I have a life, a family, a boyfriend, studies and other Internet duties. And reading that post I felt bad about this fact even though I can't do anything about it because, well, that's how my life is. And I think I shouldn't feel this way. Before complaining about things like that, I'd first try and put myself in the other's shoes. See? Here it is again.

I know I digressed, and I'm sorry. If there was a point I wanted to make clear with all that is that I find this network runs smoothly with our current rules, and that people should forget that idea about the godlike!staffer, because no matter what we decide, our feelings are behind it. We know we try to be as objective as we can, and for doing so we try to think how will all of you will feel, but it's very sad some people can't do the same with us.

[-] Mercedes ~ Ex-Songs Staffer ~ mada http://www.sadame.org/\'>mirai wa kimattenai...



Haley

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I don't really come around here as much as I do the TFL.org board, but d00d, I have something to say today. I have so much to say, actually, I shall put it all in...dun dun dun...LIST FORM.  ^_^

1. Part of being a staff member/moderator is to answer questions. They know the answer to a lot of shiz. If there is a question that is obviously answered somewhere on this site, I see no point in having the ENTIRE network "discuss" it. That's why if a SS gets to a question first and answers it 100%, why keep the topic open? Most everything you need to know is listed somewhere in this site or forum. TAFL is not that hard to understand, yo.

2. This is a separate network from TFL. Anime/Manga = here. Everything else = TFL. I don't know how someone can come up with an idea like the "Senior Staff [have] nothing better to do than track [you] down and make sure no one knows about [your] one TFL fanlisting that needs a home" spiel. TBH, there is more you can do to adopt out a fanlisting than post here at TAFL. You could...post at TFL (which has more members/visitors), email the members of your fanlisting(s) and ask them, post on the TFL LJ community, post on your blog/website, etc etc etc. See where I am going?

3. The off-topic chat subforums are NOT A CHATROOM. I can say this from being a webmaster myself with DreamHost: bandwidth and hosting is EXPENSIVE. I do not throw money out of my wallet just to have people use my server like an endless chatroom. If you want to discuss something in-depth for a loooong time with a few people in particular, why not get MSN/AIM/Trillian/ICQ/QQ/etc? ALSO, that is the place to ask someone "What are you doing [right now]" and "What is your mood today". I am the moderator of a message board, too; if I saw people making pointless threads like that, I would delete/close them instantly. They make NO conversation. Everyone posts one-liner posts. Waste of space, IMO.

4. I do realize and hear you on the whole "6 upcoming" rule. I understand that some people can push out a fanlisting faster than a mom can have a C-section, but  think there needs to be a limit. My view is that TFL is like...what...40,000 fanlistings now across a bazillion categories. This network is freaking TINY compared to that! If you make a mathematical ratio between TAFL and TFL and put the number of fanlistings in the network compared to the number of fanlistings on upcoming you are allowed, MATHEMATICALLY SPEAKING.......you should only have 3.49046439 fanlistings allowed on upcoming here at TAFL at one time. So basically, TAFL is doubling the amount. I think that is good enough.

5. I ain't gonna get into the code rules. TBH, I think they are needed. The end.

6. Relationships rule? Needed, as well. Everyone else has covered why.

7. Staffers aren't gods. Neither are the senior staff. If they scare you for some odd reason, that's your perceptual issue. I have no idea why anyone would think the staff are "scary". They are actually quite lovely people!

8. "We're sure that every other member has to agree with at least one of our points": Sorry. You got that one wrong. I don't agree with you on anything, but your voice has definitely been heard.

Teh end. Thank you.


Offline Janice

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Friends - staffer and non-staffer alike - have pointed me to this post while I'm supposedly "on leave" (XD) and well, here are my ugly two cents!

To start off, statements like "We are not democracy" is assumed naturally legitimate at organizations like TAFL. Staffers are required to have faith in their own decisions for two main reasons:

(1) Try being indecisive and you'll be buried with backlogs and contact forms tomorrow. (For Characters/Series? In less than 6 hours :))
(2) Nobody was a staffer before they became one. (We do know what being rejected is about!)

The feelings involved when we approve or reject are absolutely serious: it's a pure sense of responsibility of keeping our evergrowing database for as organized as possible, of doing what we think would lessen the level of potential dissatisfaction among members. Whether we're successful is another story, but please understand that the motivation is always there :) I hope the SS won't mind me saying this, but we staffers also face official warnings through e-mail if we don't update once a month unless there's a good reason: you can't avoid miscommunication 100% esp. when most of us live in different time zones and have different life styles.

Now to speak from the view of a fanlisting owner: let's try to be a bit more positive about the situation we're placed in. To writers of the original post: will you be confident that if one day all your needs are met, you will be forever happy at the board? Not likely. It's human nature to constantly strive for the higher and better, so one need being fulfilled would simply lead to the urge of finding another "problem". Therefore the real problem as an individual fanlisting maintainer would be: is it really something I must do without? I admit that in spite of being a staffer myself, I've secretly hoped for the relationship limit to be lifted for certain subjects I like. But I also realize that it'd get out of hands if we don't sacrifice a bit of personal desire for a more stable future. Everyone who decides to participate at TAFL should know that there's always a price to pay: it won't be as "thrilling", for lack of better words, to be approved for something if it's easily acquired.

On the other hand, I'm sure the chosen tone in the original post is what instantly triggered the list of defense after. To the posters of this topic: I personally believe that you probably didn't mean half of the negatively worded comments in your original post, but you see, people are easily deceived by words :P As a result, I would suggest a different approach from now on, such as using this board to discuss how you think would improve the quality of your application among friends and fellow FL owners. I'm sure a lot of people are willing to share those little tips they have, using what Chisa said as an example: mentioning that you have already finished X and Y upcomings in an application proves to be a really good trick to eliminate potential bias well. (I've tried that a few times myself ^^)

My bottom line? Let's just save ourselves some work, be happy about what we have and keep a smile :D
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Offline arashi

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I'm coming out of my internet hibernation to respond to this thread, which I will say outright that I think it is absolutely ridiculous something like this is brought up in such a manner. To criticize a group of people under the guise of "discussion", and doing so anonymously, on top of it all, is extremely cowardly. It blows my mind how self-righteous you think yourselves are, to bring out an attack on the governance of the TAFL network, yet not revealing your own identities. Do you know how much this undermines your integrity? Do you know how this will in effect make people take this topic less seriously? If you really wanted to raise your opinions to be discussed in a fair and just audience, why don't you put your name on it? You talk about a democratic process, yet in turn, you hide behind a veil of secrecy in order to preserve your ego. This is the first and foremost reason why I don't think you should be taken seriously at all. You haven't shown any indication that you want to be.

Furthermore, I think that because you do not reveal your names, you actually don't have that much support behind your accusations. If you had a forum of individuals backing up your claim, you would proudly reveal yourselves. By guising your post as "discussion" and posting anonymously, you are trying to gauge and gather "support", thus effectively saving your own behinds from any inadvertent consequences.

Lastly, I would like to conclude this portion of my post by saying, if you so strongly believe in your claims, why do you not do anything constructive towards your ends? Instead of whining about "unfair rules", such as you claim, why don't you suggest alternatives or solutions to the "problems"? Would this not be a more efficient way to meet your goals? All you did was make elementary statements about your grievances. So now, we're still stuck at the first step. Nothing is changing; and people are just getting more frustrated. Thus, I ask, was this your intent?

-----------------------------------------------------

And, now, to address the topics you have raised:

Forum related administration

I will only touch lightly on this topic since I'm not a spammer of the Boards like I used to be, and therefore wouldn't have the most relevant things to say. I would just like to point out that, as somebody who has moderated large forums with screaming fangirls, it is an extremely tedious and, frankly, annoying task. Do you have any idea how much time is spent reading each post that is made everyday, to make sure that they adhere to the rules? Usually at a forum of this size, there are only a handful of administrators for the hundreds and thousands of regular members, who, quite frankly, can do a lot of damage in a matter of hours. Just to be able to keep up with the volume of posts made per day is not easy. Also, might I point out that, forum administrators don't actually like to warn/ban people or delete threads. Forums are supposed to be fun, and that's why we're here. But somebody has to be the police.

In conclusion, forums have rules and they must be enforced. Otherwise things would get out of hand. If there is not a forum for your tastes here, then you can find another place or even create your own. Then you can make your own rules.

Fanlisting rules

I can go on and on about rules, but I'll try to keep it simple. I must stress the fact that rules are there for a reason. TAFL staffers don't just make rules because they hate you. They don't, I can assure you. They make rules because it makes the network easier to manage. Might I remind you that the TAFL network has almost 6500 fanlistings. That's A LOT. And there are only 21 staffers, 14 of whom take care of the categories, which are most relevant to fanlisting owners. In order to manage a network this size, including the volume of inquiries received on a daily basis, there has to be governance.

Again, I ask you, have you ever thought about why these rules were put in place? Whether it be the 6 upcoming or 3 pending... They are there to make it easier for the staffers, who, I might remind you, are working for free for YOU, to manage the sheer amount of existing, upcoming, and troubled fanlistings that we have. The anime/manga fandom, as I'm sure you know, is GIGANTIC. You try managing it without wanting bang your head on the wall. It's mind numbing sometimes. These rules were put in place so that 1) staffers get a manageable load for the amount of time they're putting into this work and 2) so that every potential fanlisting owner has a chance to own a fanlisting. This benefits both parties. Because if staffers don't have time to manage, no one will own fanlistings, well at least not ones approved by TAFL. So I beseech you, have some respect and appreciation for staffers. They take countless hours out of their precious days so you can own fanlistings.

As for the codes rule, all I can say is that it's a way to standardize. Is it really that hard to put the subject of the fanlisting on codes? It takes all of 5 seconds, seriously.

Staffer bias

First of all, I don't think you use the term "bias" in the right context, but what the hell. You guys aren't saints anyway. I think it's merely perception that Staffers seem distant and are only authoritative when it comes to the forum. You have to keep in mind that Staffers have to play two roles, one obviously is to be enforcers of Network rules and the latter is to be a participating member of the community. I think you need to distinguish those roles when you're reading a Staffer's post and put it in context. What you say as "scolding" is a mere policing of the rules. You shouldn't blame them or condemn them just because they're doing their job. What is wrong with doing their jobs? Part of their jobs is also to make sure fanlistings are approved, etc. Are you saying they should stop doing that too? Don't take things for granted. It only makes you seem immature. You can't have candy all the time.

Quote
Is it too much to ask to have Staffers who will talk to everyone and not make us feel like we're the scum of the earth because we got a little angry about a rejection or ungrateful about something else?

In response to that, I ask, have you ever considered Staffers as your fellow community members? As your "friends" that you're socializing with in this forum. I think not. You already come with the bias that Staffers only want to put you down. So why do you have the right to talk about Staffer bias? To me, it just seems like you're using this as a convenient excuse to blame Staffers on whatever you're unhappy about.

-----------------------------------------------------

Originally, I was going to post this anonymously due to the harshness of my words. But I reconsidered. Because I don't want to be a coward like you. I have already prepared myself for whatever rebuttals might come as a result. So feel free to attack my argument; I welcome it.

And lastly I just want to say how disrespectful you have been. For all the the time and work that TAFL Staffers have put in, how dare you try to slander their character? Shame on you.
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Offline Veles

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Alright, so I've been trying to stay away from this thread, because I have a couple strong opinions and several of the responses to the initial post also amuse me.  Most people might as well have wrote *ditto's Chisa* because that's what most responses are, except that they're in different tones.  However, it's great to see that this thread has received the attention that its original posters wanted - positive or negative, it's feedback at least.  

Of course it would receive negative feedback.  That's why this thread is posted anonymously, because the authors already considered all outcomes.  I'm not surprised to see so many angered responses from staffers; calling anyone biased, intimidating, or generally saying that someone thinks highly of themselves results in negative feelings.  Personally, I don't feel that the staffers are biased, because whenever I have questions or comments, they always answer mine, just like they answer anyone else's, in the same tone they always use.  Meanwhile, as for whether they are intimidating, I am personally intimidated by this board often, which is why I don't post frequently anymore.  Not because of the way any staffer responds to me in particular, but mostly because I'm not as into anime as most people here are (names like Naruto, Darker and Black, Bleach, etc - popular anime often posted here, and I'm not that familiar with them).  I don't feel as though I fit in, but since this is an anime/manga board, it's pretty easy to see why.  ^_^

Before I go on, there is something that I feel the need to point out.

[quote name='arashi' post='218022' date='Oct 31 2007, 03:38 PM']Furthermore, I think that because you do not reveal your names, you actually don't have that much support behind your accusations. If you had a forum of individuals backing up your claim, you would proudly reveal yourselves. By guising your post as "discussion" and posting anonymously, you are trying to gauge and gather "support", thus effectively saving your own behinds from any inadvertent consequences.

Lastly, I would like to conclude this portion of my post by saying, if you so strongly believe in your claims, why do you not do anything constructive towards your ends? Instead of whining about "unfair rules", such as you claim, why don't you suggest alternatives or solutions to the "problems"?
--
And lastly I just want to say how disrespectful you have been. For all the the time and work that TAFL Staffers have put in, how dare you try to slander their character? Shame on you.[/quote]

I'm sorry Arashi, but I feel that you are the one who is being disrespectful.  This topic is posted anonymously because they fear bias from staffers and fellow board members.  If TAFL didn't welcome this, this topic would have been closed well before you had the chance to post and the Anonymous account wouldn't exist in the first place.  I don't feel that they are at all cowardly because they had the guts to post this where everyone could see, staffers and board members and strangers alike.  And you're right about the "effective saving" of themselves from any "inadvertent consequences."  They already pointed this out as the reason they're anonymous in their original post.

They do bring up alternatives to the situations they describe - an extra information box in the application form so that relationships between more than three characters can be described and documented and proved.  For 6 upcoming and 3 pending, they suggest the numbers be raised.  For codes, they suggest that the word "fan" be allowed.  

And if I'm not totally illiterate, I think it looks like you're trying to slander their character with your claims of "cowardice" even though you considered being anonymous yourself and therefore cowardly by your own definition.  I'm sorry that I singled you out in particular, but of all the posts I've read in this thread, I was most offended by yours.  I can't help but wonder if your tone would be different if you knew the authors of the thread personally.

--

So anyway, about the points that are brought up in the original post.  Honestly, I don't care about any of the board related things since I'm not really an active poster here, though I do read the boards frequently.  What I'm interested in are the network rules that are brought up for discussion.  I also don't apply often here since as I said before I'm not as into anime, so 3 pending isn't so bad, but I do agree that the number is rather low.  If I were into more anime I'd probably be applying for a lot more things...  and I disagree with some of the responses stating that this would give collectors a better chance, because staffers always give the fanlisting to the people who care about the subject most - the best applicant possible.  Right?  Since collectors apply for popular subjects and don't really give a flying crap about them, I don't see why weeding them out is such a problem.

Relationships-  I agree.  There are legitimate relationships out there between four or more characters, although as it was pointed out a lot of these can be applied for under characters (meanwhile a lot of them cannot, thanks to the group rule).  A secondary textarea for more information about the relationship would make it easier for the staff to sift through them.  If nothing is written in it without any legitimate proof of the relationship actually existing, why can't the staff simply ignore it or reject it?  The staff already has the ability to reject anything they want without having to explain themselves, so I don't really see the problem here.  Disclaimer: I am not a staffer at either fanlisting network and I also don't have a life, so I obviously have no idea what staffers have to go through at all.  I freely and openly admit that.  :D

I also don't have much of a problem with the 6 upcoming rule, but again if I were into more anime/manga, this could be a problem.  If anything, I most agree with you on the codes rule.  Admittedly, I don't like codes with simply "fan" on them and always write the subject on the codes; it just looks nicer to me.  But I understand why you would want to write "fan" on some, especially for long songs or episodes, or long series names.  It doesn't look good when they're abbreviated and it doesn't look good when they're written out in full because then there's basically no more picture left.  It would be awesome if the code rule could at least lift the "fan" ban on 50x50 codes (though maybe require that at least one of them have the actual subject matter on them?), because often times they're too small to squeeze text on there.  At least 75x50, 100x35, 100x50 and onward have more width and room to write down things like , even if it is only a couple more pixels.

Though, there isn't any use in hoping that the code rule be changed, because it's already been addressed several times and apparently isn't changing anytime soon, if ever.  What I'm grateful for is that the layout rule that had first come in addition to the codes rule was lifted.  That rule was ridiculous compared to the codes rule, in my opinion, and Sasa's post (for those of you who remember) showed that.  Most importantly, it showed that TAFL staff does care about the community and does what they feel is best for it.  In all honesty I was rather dumbfounded at the phrase "TAFL is not a democracy" when I read it, because even though it's not a democracy, it seemed as though the network rules that were brought up weren't even considered, and it seems that they should be.  Obviously a single opinion doesn't have to cause a complete and immediate change, but the feeling I get is that the criticism concerning network policies were glanced at and tossed aside as "already addressed."  I understand not wanting to repeat yourself or budge on the matter, but still, it makes the authors look insignificant in the eyes of the community, especially with the "my way or the highway" attitude - which may or may not be the entire reason the authors feel intimidated in the first place.

Anyway, my post is long enough, so I'll just leave it at this.  I'm sure I'll go down in flames for daring to agree with the authors at all, let alone stand up for them, but at least I finally posted.  Yay.
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Offline Hikoto

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I don't think I'm in much of a position to say anything since I don't really frequent the boards (maybe 'stalk' is a better word. =P)

Quote
This next argument has been derived from the above - how, when we want to discuss rules, we are basically just told "No" without a good reason. Why shouldn't we, the people of TAFL, not have a say in how this network is run? We're sure that many people would agree with us on each of those points made above, but yet we don't get any say on it. Even our opinions about things that should/shouldn't be approvable are dismissed, and often solely on the category staffer's opinions on series they aren't even familiar with. Threads about the codes rule and 4 person + relationship rule are closed without discussion, and although the upcoming/pending rules have been said to be "discussed", we were never updated on the progress. We have a right to know that our opinions are taken seriously.

Actually I think the presence of a forum to actually let us post our views is proof that the network does welcome feedback from its users. Of course, you can give all the feedback you want, but there is no guarantee that whatever you suggested may be implemented no matter how fabulous you think it is. (Apply this to your local town/mayor/district/province/whatever. The government ain't gonna make some changes just because you think it should be this way.) Personally, the only rule I'm having a bit of a problem understanding now is the Ambiguous Codes rule. (I mean...it's just buttons! The fans aren't gonna care whether the codes accurately reflect the subject! They just wanna have a nice shiny button to link back the site with.) I posted a thread regarding it, the staffers have read and decided that it will not change. That's a fact. So you either go with the flow or start sulking at how miserable this place is. I'll choose the former if I want to keep my fanlistings within this network. This is their ground, so you really gotta play with their rules, no matter how much you're against it. ^_^

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Offline Chisa

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I hope you don't feel as if I'm attacking you (because I most certainly am not  ^_^) but I can't help but address some of your points.

[quote name='Veles' post='218047' date='Oct 31 2007, 04:01 PM']They do bring up alternatives to the situations they describe - an extra information box in the application form so that relationships between more than three characters can be described and documented and proved.  For 6 upcoming and 3 pending, they suggest the numbers be raised.  For codes, they suggest that the word "fan" be allowed.[/quote]

I must disagree with this; I can't find any alternative solutions in the original post; 'alternative suggestions' being defined as 'compromise' in my books  :D  The extra information box idea was posted by Mistress Puff, not the original posters. I also cannot find any alternatives voiced about the 6 upcoming/ 3 pending rule. An alternative suggestion would be, for example, telling us what exact numbers they would like the numbers to be raised to. As for the codes, asking for the word 'fan' to be allowed is simply asking for the rule to be lifted altogether (though actually, codes with only 'fan' on it are allowed in certain categories. We did not ban the word 'fan' altogether, we simply want the codes to not be ambiguous).

[quote name='Veles' post='218047' date='Oct 31 2007, 04:01 PM']Relationships- I agree. There are legitimate relationships out there between four or more characters, although as it was pointed out a lot of these can be applied for under characters (meanwhile a lot of them cannot, thanks to the group rule). A secondary textarea for more information about the relationship would make it easier for the staff to sift through them. If nothing is written in it without any legitimate proof of the relationship actually existing, why can't the staff simply ignore it or reject it? The staff already has the ability to reject anything they want without having to explain themselves, so I don't really see the problem here. Disclaimer: I am not a staffer at either fanlisting network and I also don't have a life, so I obviously have no idea what staffers have to go through at all. I freely and openly admit that. smile.gif[/quote]

If you are the only applicant, you will be approved, so no, we don't have the ability to reject anything without explaining ourselves ^_^ You are also always free to ask as to why the application was rejected as well, though I'd imagine the staffer would tell you the reason regardless (i.e. applying for a manhwa, series is too new, unapprovable subject for x reason, etc.)  As for the box idea, the thing with that is, as I mentioned before, is that it grants us the "god-status" that nobody wants, to allow us to determine whether the 4+ person relationship is legitimate or not. If we approve Person A for a 4+ relationship, but rejected Person B for a 4+ relationship just because we don't find it legitimate despite whatever proof Person B may have provided -- it honestly wouldn't be fair to any of you. The box idea (extra information field) itself is fine for helping the staffer with URLs and whatnot like at TFL, but for the 4+ relationships, it simply wouldn't be fair.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 08:34:48 PM by Chisa »
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Offline Korey

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I'm actually really scared to post here... but here goes:

I think maybe this thread has gotten out of control. I fully understand the need to post this thread. Rosemary pointed out that TAFL is not a democracy. However, in some aspect I believe we are. We are however allowed to voice our opinions, and guys believe it or not, our opinions are taken into consideration. I mean, when the staff decided to break up the Characters category into two separate categories, weren't we all allowed to vote on it? And ultimately, guys: the staff works for us. Things may be slow sometimes, but we all have lives. It's not like the staff just sits on their asses with their laptops clutched to them and refresh their inboxes as they await our applications. I think that sometimes, in the heat of excitement, that factor is forgotten.

This person who posted this thread had a very fine reason for doing so. They obviously just wanted to voice their opinion(s) and ultimately, they want what we all want: a clean, smooth, network. Sure, there maybe some rules here, that we all aren't on the same page on... but is there really a need to... kill each other? I'm especially upset over what this thread is doing to us! This thread is pinning us up against each other as if we're in some type of war. I mean, we all have different opinions. Is that really a need to call each other out on?

One person called this thread starter a coward, and someone else responded by calling them a coward back. Isn't the point of fanlistings to unite fans? But more importantly... to unite friends?

Rules are put into effect for a reason. The Senior Staff (no matter who refuses to believe it) is only looking out for us. Most of these rules aren't anything new, and you guys were fine with them until this topic started. ^_^ WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG? *in teenage-girl-crying-mode*

And before I finish this: I agree, there are some rules I don't agree with, and there are some Senior Staff decisions that really didn't sit nicely with me at first, but then I realized why there here: to work with us, and to help us.
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Offline Carolyn

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[quote name='Korey' post='218056' date='Oct 31 2007, 08:32 PM']Sure, there maybe some rules here, that we all aren't on the same page on... but is there really a need to... kill each other? I'm especially upset over what this thread is doing to us! This thread is pinning us up against each other as if we're in some type of war.[/quote]
Actually, I disagree with that. I mean, sure, inside this particular thread things are getting pretty heated, but have you noticed how the board is so much closer outside? All of the wonderful new threads that everyone has posted is bringing tons of enthusiasm to everyone and people are really getting along- and in a non-spammy way, like Rosemary pointed out that the "Your Mood" thread was. I think that the mood at AFL has been suddenly lifted and I love getting to know things about everyone else.

So yes, while I wish it didn't take a thread full of hurt feelings to start it, I think things are changing for the better ^_^
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 08:44:02 PM by Carolyn »
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Offline Korey

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[quote name='Carolyn' post='218062' date='Oct 31 2007, 08:43 PM'][quote name='Korey' post='218056' date='Oct 31 2007, 08:32 PM']Sure, there maybe some rules here, that we all aren't on the same page on... but is there really a need to... kill each other? I'm especially upset over what this thread is doing to us! This thread is pinning us up against each other as if we're in some type of war.[/quote]
Actually, I disagree with that. I mean, sure, inside this particular thread things are getting pretty heated, but have you noticed how the board is so much closer outside? All of the wonderful new threads that everyone has posted is bringing tons of enthusiasm to everyone and people are really getting along- and in a non-spammy way, like Rosemary pointed out that the "Your Mood" thread was. I think that the mood at AFL has been suddenly lifted and I love getting to know things about everyone else.

So yes, while I wish it didn't take a thread full of hurt feelings to start it, I think things are changing for the better ^_^
[/quote]

Actually, I have noticed. :D But I was talking about this thread. I am however, glad to see things are working out! ^_^

*hugs you all!*
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