Question about the yaoi/shoune-ai genre listings

[Kimmu]

I know this is a bit of an unpopular opinion, but with the recent removal of shounen-ai and the excitement it is has caused... it's been bugging me.

Shounen-ai as a genre refers to a very specific type of manga produced in the late 70s/early 80s that has long been considered dead in Japan. Shounen-ai is not the softcore equivalent of yaoi, which is what the old fanlisting stated it as, and what most of the applicants seem to feel it is. Nor is shounen-ai just the Japanese words for Boy's Love. BL is the all encompassing term for male/male work that includes anything from the G rating to hardcore pornography and is actually refered to in Engrish.

How do you reconcile the wrong usage of the term with the fanlisting?

And this brings up another question that was posed to me and that has been niggling at my brain. Is Boy's Love/BL an approvable genre listing?

[Mura]

[quote name='Kimmu' date='Nov 8 2005, 01:44 PM']And this brings up another question that was posed to me and that has been niggling at my brain. Is Boy's Love/BL an approvable genre listing?

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[/quote]


Put another way, technically all yaoi is BL, but all BL is not yaoi, right?

[Genevieve]

I know that the genre categories have been defined the way they are by the Western usage of the terms "shounen-ai" and "yaoi," and the Western fanbase uses them to refer to male/male romances that are non-adult v. adult.  I mean, by the Japanese usage of the words, the Western fanbase isn't using "yaoi" or "hentai" correctly either - and I'm not even sure there is a "shoujo-ai" outside of hentai, or a "yuri" outside of hentai.  But the Western fanbase has co-opted the terms to refer to ... well, for lack of a better term here ... non-adult v. adult femmeslash.

So, that's a bit of background for you.  I know it doesn't answer the question.  The ultimate answer as to whether or not TAFL will  continue to go by the Western fanbase usage of the words to refer to genres, or go to Japanese usages (june, anyone?), is probably best left to Shadow, or the SS.

[Kimmu]

[quote name='Mura' date='Nov 8 2005, 03:19 PM']Put another way, technically all yaoi is BL, but all BL is not yaoi, right?

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[/quote]

Mmhmm. Aestheticism has a handy list of the terms and their definintions.

[Shadow]

Well, this is my take on the issue. Technically, yes, Shounen-ai is an obsolete term when it comes down to following Japanese culture. So it would  seem best to just direct a BL fanlisting as encompassing both the western terms of “Shounen-ai” and “Yaoi.” There is one fault I see to this. I know TAFL tries to follow anime/manga and other related subjects as closely as possible to Japanese standards, but when it comes to such widely popular fanlistings such as “Shounen-ai,” we have to also think about the fans. Most of the internet-going fanbase follows western terms of “Shounen-ai” and “Yaoi.” From what I’ve seen, a lot of the yaoi/shounen-ai fans I have happened across know nothing of the terms “June” or even “BL.” Personally, I feel we should leave the subjects as they are since these western terms are what appeal best to majority of fans across the ‘net.  Also, I believe separate fanlistings distinguishing these two subjects are needed since not every boyxboy fan enjoys pr0n as we may believe.

Hopefully this makes sense? ^^;;

[Lia]

But shounen-ai titles do still exist, regardless of whether they're still created or not. I know, I run one of the fanlistings for said shonen-ai titles. It was created in the 70s/80s (date varies from manga to anime), but it still exists. It's still fansubbed, and still in print.

I would never call Kaze to Ki no Uta (the aforementioned title for which I run the fanlisting) yaoi. It isn't. There's no actual sex, and there's only hints that anything sexual ever happened in the series. That's not yaoi. I don't think series like Gravitation can be considered yaoi either. Naturally, things happen, but not in such explicit detail as in what I consider to be "yaoi" novels.

I think they need to stay split, due to the different connotations of each genre.

[Danielle]

I agree, they should remain as-is, and as Shadow gave a very adequate response, I feel I need add nothing further. :ph34r:

[Myka]

[quote name='Kimmu' date='Nov 8 2005, 02:44 PM']And this brings up another question that was posed to me and that has been niggling at my brain. Is Boy's Love/BL an approvable genre listing?

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*pokes you*

I would like to know this too.

*agrees with shounen-ai and yaoi verdict*

[Shadow]

Ah, I don't think I would approve a BL fanlisting because the topic  overlaps too much with Shounen-ai and Yaoi.  :ph34r:

[Mitzrael]

agree too, shounen-ai as pointed can be non-sexual or not very explicit relationships.
quoted a defnition I also use a lot , and i think it's mostly correct.

Shōnen-ai (少年愛 from 少年 shōnen young man + 愛 ai love) refers to anime or manga that deals with love between young men, especially of the bishonen variety. In its infancy, the genre originally dealt with very strong but non-sexual relationships between young men. Nowadays, it has come to refer to romantic male-male relationships.

Shōnen-ai is usually less explicit or sexual than yaoi, and the characters involved in shōnen-ai are generally of a much younger age.
Ironically, the term shōnen-ai is not used as often in Japan; the wasei-eigo construction Boys Love (ボーイズラブ bōizu rabu but usually rendered as English, occasionally spelled Boy's Love or Boys' Love, or abbreviated BL) has largely displaced it, due to associations of the original term with pederasty or pedophilia (which were not borrowed into English usage). (This is doubly ironic, since the similar English term boylove has the exact meaning Boys Love was coined to avoid.) The Japanese Wikipedia link on the side of this page links to ボーイズラブ (boīzu rabu) rather than to shōnen-ai.

Shōnen-ai must be differentiated from actual homosexual-market comics; the relationships depicted are between boys, often as young as fourteen, twelve or even ten years old, and are often completely psychologically impossible. The dynamics depicted are unrealistic — the goal of shōnen-ai is the perpetuation of fantasy, not an actual depiction of homosexual life. Though some gay market-oriented comics have been published in Japan, they have always been underground, independent affairs, with small circulation and little coverage.

sorry....my post is sooo long  :ph34r:

[Kimmu]

[quote name='Mitzrael' date='Nov 8 2005, 11:14 PM']agree too, shounen-ai as pointed can be non-sexual or not very explicit relationships.
quoted a defnition I also use a lot , and i think it's mostly correct.

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[/quote]

The wiki definition of shounen-ai there is incorrect, if we looking at the actual Japanese definition of the genre.

I was not wondering whether yaoi and shounen-ai should be seperated as I will quite readily agree that they are two different genres(just not the two genres people seem to think they are), but that the fanlistings being created are for things that are entirely different than what the actual definitions of the terms are.

But as I take it, TAFL's stance on it is to use the Western misconceptions of the terms as that is what fans are more familiar with.

I won't argue it anymore, since it pleases the most people. I'll just hope the owners of the respective fanlistings will state what their fanlistings are for - the Western ideas of yaoi and shounen-ai and help stop the spread of the wrong usage of the words.

[Lenneth]

Danielle and I were never totally happy with the definition of shounen-ai that we chose to apply at TAFL (TFL, actually, at that time), but it was more a matter of practicality than anything else, as I recall. We looked at the definition at Aestheticism and elsewhere on the web, but at the time our biggest concern was having an alternative to YAOI that would be non-adult, or at least adult-neutral (if that makes sense), and easily recognizable by our visitors. We knew it wasn't perfect and made the choice with reservations.

One concern I have is that if the staff were to require the Shounen-Ai fanlisting to be about the genre Shounen-Ai (even if it wasn't currently being produced *at all*, it could still have fans), the owner of the new fanlisting would have tons and tons of members who think they are joining something else. I don't really know what an adequate solution would be, but I don't really see a way to make everybody happy.

As for BL being an acceptable genre . . . The staff would have to give that some discussion to see if the overlap with other FLs makes it redundant.

Eh, I still sound like a staffer.  :ph34r:

[Shadow]

What I've seen when I visited Japan, was that everything guyxguy related was deemed BL by fans. Even on the manga there, you can find BL stickers on the "lightest" comics. I believe in modern day Japan, they are only accustomed to the term Boys Love. ^^;;; So, I think the point I'm trying to bring across is that Boys Love IS shounen-ai and yaoi combined, so having another fanlisting just on BL would be redundant. Though, if you really wish, you may send in a BL fanlisting application and I will talk it over with other staffers.

*never knew that talking to a Japanese girl in a doujinshi shop would be so useful* XD


Edit: I think what needs to be said has been said, so I'll close this post now. If you find the need to speak to me directly, you can send an e-mail through the contact form.   :ph34r: